Winter Golf and Handicap

[LincolnShep]

You're special Shep!!

I know. My Mum tells me so.

 

[Orikoru]

There's an implicit assumption here that everyone's winter scores will be worse than their summer scores. For some people that will be true, but not for everyone. My scores barely change. Do you know that you scores are worse in the winter?

Over the last ten years, I've averaged 31.1 (stableford points) in the winter and 31.3 in the summer.
View attachment 50347
'Winter', for the purposes of these calcs, is Oct-Mar incl.

Winter golf is certainly harder for me, the course plays much longer due to soft ground/no roll, and windy conditions, plus short game is much more difficult with muddy lies. I'd be shocked if my scores don't reflect this, and you've appealed to my nerdy nature in working it out, so I will. For the record I would count October as summer as it's usually pretty mild down here. So April-Oct summer, Nov-Mar winter.

Average Points
Winter '20: 30.60 (but only five rounds played since we'd just joined and then it was lockdown)
Summer '21: 34.54
Winter '21: 35.00
Summer '22: 35.00
Winter '22: 32.86
Summer '23: 32.86

Well, consider me shocked. That's incredible that the following summer scores are exactly the same, haha. Only caveat I can offer is that there was a clear drop-off from summer '22 to winter '22, and then the first half of this year I actually played particularly crap which has brought my summer total down - including a notable outlier of only 23 points in the club champs. But it's still not what I expected to see at all. That's very interesting indeed.

 

[D-S]

Winter golf is certainly harder for me, the course plays much longer due to soft ground/no roll, and windy conditions, plus short game is much more difficult with muddy lies. I'd be shocked if my scores don't reflect this, and you've appealed to my nerdy nature in working it out, so I will. For the record I would count October as summer as it's usually pretty mild down here. So April-Oct summer, Nov-Mar winter.

Average Points
Winter '20: 30.60 (but only five rounds played since we'd just joined and then it was lockdown)
Summer '21: 34.54
Winter '21: 35.00
Summer '22: 35.00
Winter '22: 32.86
Summer '23: 32.86

Well, consider me shocked. That's incredible that the following summer scores are exactly the same, haha. Only caveat I can offer is that there was a clear drop-off from summer '22 to winter '22, and then the first half of this year I actually played particularly crap which has brought my summer total down - including a notable outlier of only 23 points in the club champs. But it's still not what I expected to see at all. That's very interesting indeed.

Are you playing off the same tees on the same platforms winter and summer?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Will try and play rollup most Saturdays and occasional knocks of a few holes during the week…but doubt I’ll put much in the way of cards for handicap. And I’ve only entered the one Winter Comp (handicap k/o singles).

Interestingly (for me anyway) my club has this last week sent out an email stating very clearly the requirements on members for submitting General Play cards, and these include round pre-registration and card submission; card being attested by a player who witnessed the round (read into that what you will) , and a requirement for a signed card being put into the General Play box in the club, even when a card is submitted electronically. Plus as we use IG for handicap admin the club asks that we use the IG app for e-submission of GP and comp scores and not the MyEG app (to streamline handicap admin).

Email also makes very clear the penalties that will be applied for continued failure to submit scores, or other breaches…and that repeated breaches and excessive penalty scores applied may result in suspension or loss of handicap.

 

[Orikoru]

Are you playing off the same tees on the same platforms winter and summer?

What do you mean by platforms? Tees I mentioned earlier - we tend to go to mats but only some of them are shorter than the normal tees, while others are longer. I don't know what the exact different in total yardage would be, but probably minimal. I'd guess the overall difference is no more than 30 yards shorter in winter (more than negated by lack of roll of course).

 

[jim8flog]

I have said it before .

There was a time in my life when all the downs in my handicap were in Autumn, Winter and Spring and all the ups in Summer.

Much more like target golf in those periods.

 

[rosecott]

I wish golf England would sort out the PCC , played few weeks back in 35mph guests with constant 20mph wind .. all of us struggled

Played again 2 days later with no wind at all and yet both days the PCC didn't kick in

First day was a clear 3 shot difference in difficulty minimum, I mean 3 club wind on most holes lol

When does it kick in? Just posted how I never see it applied

You have not been paying attention. It's not related to the windspeed or your perception of how difficult you found conditions. It's how players dealt with conditions on the day - all in relation to each player's handicap and how his performance related to it.

Have you ever thought of asking your committee to tell you the actual figures for your course? The data is freely available to your committee. This is the data from my course:

Course - 285 comps so far this year - 1 @ -1, 263 @ no change, 15 @ +1, 3 @ +2, 3 @ +3 - around 8% change from no change.

Why not ask the question and see if the answer backs up your assertion that you never see it applied?

 

[Imurg]

PCC has an image problem..
Firstly, it's poorly named. P,aying Conditions Calculation..conditions may or may not affect scoring but it's the scoring that matters
Should be call PSC..Player's Scoring Calculation
When, and how often, it kicks in can be misleading.
Although it hasn't appeared in my last 30 or so rounds it doesn't mean it doesn't appear at all, although that could be the case.
Because, to the ordinary player, PCC is only visible on their personal scores - it may be published on a results sheet but not all clubs do that - it may be assumed that it doesn't appear at all...
As the calculation is "classified" it presents itself as some mysterious way of changing your handicap.
All of this adds up to suspicion of PCC - rightly or wrongly - which should be made more transparent so that those who want to know how it works are able to.

 

[PJ87]

You have not been paying attention. It's not related to the windspeed or your perception of how difficult you found conditions. It's how players dealt with conditions on the day - all in relation to each player's handicap and how his performance related to it.

Have you ever thought of asking your committee to tell you the actual figures for your course? The data is freely available to your committee. This is the data from my course:

Course - 285 comps so far this year - 1 @ -1, 263 @ no change, 15 @ +1, 3 @ +2, 3 @ +3 - around 8% change from no change.

Why not ask the question and see if the answer backs up your assertion that you never see it applied?

My PP is one of the handicap committee...

We were only 4 scores on that day as anyone else went out didn't do golf England.

I won the 4 ball with 30 points the rest struggled to hit mid 20s

 

[Orikoru]

PCC has an image problem..
Firstly, it's poorly named. P,aying Conditions Calculation..conditions may or may not affect scoring but it's the scoring that matters
Should be call PSC..Player's Scoring Calculation
When, and how often, it kicks in can be misleading.
Although it hasn't appeared in my last 30 or so rounds it doesn't mean it doesn't appear at all, although that could be the case.
Because, to the ordinary player, PCC is only visible on their personal scores - it may be published on a results sheet but not all clubs do that - it may be assumed that it doesn't appear at all...
As the calculation is "classified" it presents itself as some mysterious way of changing your handicap.
All of this adds up to suspicion of PCC - rightly or wrongly - which should be made more transparent so that those who want to know how it works are able to.

The point is (contextually for this thread), PCC kicks in so rarely that it was a bit rich for someone to suggest it actually accounts for the difficulty of winter conditions. It doesn't.

 

[wjemather]

The point is (contextually for this thread), PCC kicks in so rarely that it was a bit rich for someone to suggest it actually accounts for the difficulty of winter conditions. It doesn't.

Given PCC is based on scoring, if it is consistently not moving, that would suggest that winter conditions aren't significantly more difficult than summer conditions.

 

[Dando]

Well after 1 winter card I knocked .4 off my handicap.

The course is only short so I don’t really find it changes much for me in the winter

 

[chico]

We've already got temporary tees, winter greens getting used and soft fairways with billions of leaves on them.
Add to the above I'm lucky if I'll get half a dozen games in before the clock's change again, the last thing I want is to be putting cards in.

 

[KenL]

no comps at Nairn during winter anyway, but we use matts from everywhere except deep rough and bunkers so we couldn't have qualifying comps. I have been a winter member at N Dunbar the last few years they have comps every weekend, but non qualifying . i. thinking of Joining Tain Again as as they have stopped dropping to the side or using mats, they have been running comps all winter so might be putting a few cards in this year for the first time in years

We have comps over the winter, only 1 per month.
From December we use mats on fairway and semi.
But, in comps or if you choose to put in a GP score you can use mat on fairway but not the semi.
The white tees are taken in so we are playing our "yellow" course.
If anything, I think it can be easier to score well as the rough is down and can be less windy.

 

[rosecott]

My PP is one of the handicap committee...

We were only 4 scores on that day as anyone else went out didn't do golf England.

I won the 4 ball with 30 points the rest struggled to hit mid 20s

Well, why not ask him to get the PCC data for your course. It's not a state secret.

 

[Orikoru]

Given PCC is based on scoring, if it is consistently not moving, that would suggest that winter conditions aren't significantly more difficult than summer conditions.

Based on scoring it might be but it only ever changes by 1 shot on all but the very rarest of occasions so I fail to see how it's making a blind bit of difference in the grand scheme of things. Obviously some struggle with winter conditions more than others, we're not all the same.

 

[rulefan]

Well I am surprised to see that there seems to be as many vanity cappers here as there are reported bandits.

 

[clubchamp98]

If only there was some kind of calculation that could be used to adjust the scores of the entire field to reflect the playing condition.

There is but it’s a secret!

 

[2blue]

If only there was some kind of calculation that could be used to adjust the scores of the entire field to reflect the playing condition.

There is but it’s a secret!........

but it's working

 

[clubchamp98]

When we go to yellow tees it brings all the bunkers into my range off the tee.

So I usually lay up to where I normally hit it off the whites.

Conditions are not great atm so no comps for me , club only plays 4bbb from Oct anyway.


For me the main difference in winter is short game and putting it’s a lot harder to judge both!
This time of year the Bobble Theory comes in to play.