Why should amature winnings be limited?

[harpo_72]

Sorry buddy - I'm either very dim or completely missing what you are getting at. If you want to play proper competitions for money then turn pro and go for it - good luck. That's what the pro game is there for. Otherwise stay amateur. Our game is not for the winning of pots of money it's for the fun of it. And success brings satisfaction and pride - but not money.

Have you read much about Gary Wolsteneholme? He could have been a very successful pro golfer but stayed amateur - for the love of the game and less stress - and he had a decent job. He was well +++ handicap and had a fantastic and i am sure vey fulfilling amateur career. Not sure why you think having a plus handicap makes amateur golf less fulfilling or enjoyable.

I think he tried his hand at the senior pro tour but not sure what success he is having or whether indeed he is still giving it a serious go.

[Note from GW website - 2013 European Senior Tour OoM - currently 13th with earnings of €72,929]

Do you play for side bets? I only do if its suggested by someone else. I have also had plenty of run ins with guys who want to play for £50 a side but want to play off their handicap and not scratch. Yet when you suggest that they can have their handicap and play for pride they are not interested. That is the state of the amature game...

 

[fundy]

Didn't he win on the seniors tour last year or maybe the year before? I do remember there being a bit of an interview with hi in the mag when he tuned pro. and as i remeber he didn't turn pro because he was not long enough for the European tour??

We have two guys at my club who have both tried there hands as Tour pro's both of them were +3 or 4 and niether made it and turned Am again

Hes won 3 times on the European Seniors tour to date

 

[fundy]

Do you play for side bets? I only do if its suggested by someone else. I have also had plenty of run ins with guys who want to play for £50 a side but want to play off their handicap and not scratch. Yet when you suggest that they can have their handicap and play for pride they are not interested. That is the state of the amature game...

You have a really weird view of the "amature" game as you call it imo

The clear demarcation between amateur and professional is playing for money (or at least serious money).

Are you expecting a tournament for amateurs with a 10k prize for 1st? How many entrants do you think you are going to get? How much would you be charging per entrant? Are you planning on their being a "sponsor" and if so what are they getting for their money?

As for side bets, Ive played in games with very small side bets and some with what most on here I expect would see as excessive side bets. Some have been off scratch, some have been off handicap, thats the beauty of the system. It seems to me as you have got down to a lower handicap you dont trust or believe the handicap system?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Do you play for side bets? I only do if its suggested by someone else. I have also had plenty of run ins with guys who want to play for £50 a side but want to play off their handicap and not scratch. Yet when you suggest that they can have their handicap and play for pride they are not interested. That is the state of the amature game...

Me? Side Bets? Yes - grudgingly - 20p each 9; 20p the round; 20p bit. Most I have ever won on such a match £4.60

Will NEVER play for the £50 nonsense stuff. Wallets inverse proportion to their...

And my ... confirmed that they are not interested in playing for pridfe. Avoid these people like the plague - they will take you for a ride and if they can't play the game for fun - you shouldn't even wish to be seen in the company of them.

And you are quite wrong - what you say is NOT the state of the amateur (kind note - please spell it correctly ) game. If it is the state of the game at your club I'd find yourself a new club if I were you. If these are your golfing friends - find new golfing friends.

 

[harpo_72]

You have a really weird view of the "amature" game as you call it imo

The clear demarcation between amateur and professional is playing for money (or at least serious money).

Are you expecting a tournament for amateurs with a 10k prize for 1st? How many entrants do you think you are going to get? How much would you be charging per entrant? Are you planning on their being a "sponsor" and if so what are they getting for their money?

As for side bets, Ive played in games with very small side bets and some with what most on here I expect would see as excessive side bets. Some have been off scratch, some have been off handicap, thats the beauty of the system. It seems to me as you have got down to a lower handicap you dont trust or believe the handicap system?

I just asked why it was restricted yet the only answer I have had is hypothetical about it ruining the game ... It hasn't happened yet so how do we know the outcome? It would not affect a great many of us I am sure as the standard would be extremely high.

I have been lower, low enough to have passed the playability tests, but alas too old to have been stuck in a shop for 3 yrs. I came back to the game after working and not being part of a club, so the changes have taken place and its quite different to what I left. I know change happens, sometimes it's good sometimes it's bad.
I just asked a simple question that is all, I did not ask for a quality judgement or for a comment on my handicap ...

 

[fundy]

I just asked why it was restricted yet the only answer I have had is hypothetical about it ruining the game ... It hasn't happened yet so how do we know the outcome? It would not affect a great many of us I am sure as the standard would be extremely high.

I have been lower, low enough to have passed the playability tests, but alas too old to have been stuck in a shop for 3 yrs. I came back to the game after working and not being part of a club, so the changes have taken place and its quite different to what I left. I know change happens, sometimes it's good sometimes it's bad.
I just asked a simple question that is all, I did not ask for a quality judgement or for a comment on my handicap ...

Not sure where I did either

 

[harpo_72]

Not sure where I did either

Fair comment, it wasn't you it was pointed remark aimed at others ... Who know who they are!

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Totally on the side of the OP here.
Golf should be open.
The top amateurs are far from that....most earn a good living.
Amateur golf at the top level is a complete farce.

Imagine how competitive a County Championship would be if it was open to pros and amateurs.
Club golfers would still remain club golfers but their low handicap players would be able to win cash prizes at open events.
Many Counties offer M&S vouchers as prizes.
The taxman sees that as cash. So even the counties are breaking R&A rules.

OP
Out of interest what were your last three scratch medal scores and why do you think you will win money prizes against the Pros.

 

[harpo_72]

Totally on the side of the OP here.
Golf should be open.
The top amateurs are far from that....most earn a good living.
Amateur golf at the top level is a complete farce.

Imagine how competitive a County Championship would be if it was open to pros and amateurs.
Club golfers would still remain club golfers but their low handicap players would be able to win cash prizes at open events.
Many Counties offer M&S vouchers as prizes.
The taxman sees that as cash. So even the counties are breaking R&A rules.

OP
Out of interest what were your last three scratch medal scores and why do you think you will win money prizes against the Pros.

Utter rubbish ... Dunno why you would bother trying to get beyond a certain point unless it was rewarded. Hence the question, and perhaps it would motivate myself and others to push on and get the wife on side. ( new shoes are a great bribe)

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Utter rubbish ... Dunno why you would bother trying to get beyond a certain point unless it was rewarded. Hence the question, and perhaps it would motivate myself and others to push on and get the wife on side. ( new shoes are a great bribe)

Eh? please explain as I was agreeing with you??

Ignore the last sentence as it crossed over your earlier reply and I can now see where you are coming from.

 

[harpo_72]

Sorry last scratch scores were utter rubbish ..

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Utter rubbish ... Dunno why you would bother trying to get beyond a certain point unless it was rewarded. Hence the question, and perhaps it would motivate myself and others to push on and get the wife on side. ( new shoes are a great bribe)

Why would you bother trying to get beyond a certain point? - well if YOU can't be bothered - then don't bother. It's entirely up to you and I am sure no-one else cares two hoots whether you get better or not. A better (or not) you isn't going to affect anyone but yourslef. I'm still missing something I think - still not getting it. You play golf because you enjoy it, and then you reach a point where you can't be bothered improving unless someone is going to put some money up to encourage or entice you to do do? Why would/should they bother? Nope - still don't get it.

You seem top be verging upon the point where a club 'pays' low handicappers to join the club, and provides financial incentives to low handicappers to improve as the club thinks it reflects well on the club and gives them 'look at all the sf and + handicap golfers we have' bragging rights and a competitive edge, countuy representation etc. Which will happen I am sure. But any golfers thinking that in my place can take a hike and be mercenaries elsewhere.

 

[mchacker]

I've wondered this recently as other games such as darts, snooker, pool, poker that are accessible to amateurs can be played for collosal sums against the very pros they look up to on tv, it gives the amateur player something to aspire to and potentially a story to tell the grandkids in years to come. We all root for the amateur that has a good run in the majors(Tom Lewis, Tianlang Guan spring to mind) but these guys can only have a trophy and story for achieving the same as a professional playing partner, how much would Justin Rose have got for his 4th in the open as a pro?

PS, evening all, been lurking for a bit and decided to chime in at last

 

[Doon frae Troon]

OK I understand now!!
Club golfers or handicap system prizes, captains day etc. would remain as now.

Would it not be good to have a third tier of amateur pro/events. There are some right no hopers playing in the third tier pro events. To replace them with the good young amateurs would be progressive.
It would also open up a new type of local 'championships', perhaps replacing the flagging county amateur championships.

 

[duncan mackie]

Why can't you have scratch competitions for non PGA members for big prizes as well, what is the r and a' s issue?

you were given the answer in post #15

you can - they are called professional golf competitions and anyone can enter who meets the criteria of those running their events; or of course can organise their own events! TP Tour Series, Europro Tour, Jamega Tour are all available to anyone (pretty much) who pays the entry fee.

you can be paid, you can be sponsored, you can take home huge prizes........you just have to convince someone to pay you, to sponsor you and you have to win the prizes!

if you are paid more in remuneration and prizes than it costs you to enter the competitions you will be a success.

many events are effectively 'swindles' with the entry fees (or a proportion of them!) being the prize fund.

possibly the more obvious questions would be -

why would anyone remunerate (pay/sponser) a golfer?

why would anyone put up money for golfers to compete for?

but the real issue is very simple - as soon as the money gets large enough, bigger fish start to arrive in the pool!

 

[Foxholer]

After looking into the PGA requirements, I understand why lots of people don't bother. However I cannot see why people cannot compete for money or be sponsored etc without being a member of the PGA. I know the tour is owned and run by the PGA but that is just a brand. Why can't you have scratch competitions for non PGA members for big prizes as well, what is the r and a' s issue?

I think you should define exactly why you think Amateurs would want to compete for cash - and how that differs from being a Professional. Or simply a Gambler.

Prizes up to £500 are actually already allowed. What value would you expect to be playing for? Why would you think that playing for cash was better, as an Amateur, than playing for a prestigious title. There are also reasonably tight limits on what other sponsorship or equipment can be provided in order to differentiate the Pro from the Am golfer.

I believe Gary Wolstenholme was indeed a virtual Pro for quite a while - and had to eventually stop 'working' they way he was doing as it infringed (amended?) Am Rules. His lack of length ws the thing that stopped him from turning Pro, but that's not such a problem on the Senior Tour, so he's very competitive. I know someone, very long hitter, who played Foursomes with him at The Berkshire and noted that they were both playing their 2nd shots from places they'd never done so before!

@Doon. Given that (only) a certain amount of cash is allowed as Prize, what makes you think that Am Golf is a sham?

The 2 other sports I know a bit about are actually set up quite differently. Rugby separates Pro and Amateur, though there is a blurry cross-point. Tennis simply has Players - no differentiation.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Top amateurs can set up trust funds to draw money for 'travel and living expenses'.
They are given equipment, clothing etc by golf companies.
If not at college they get mock 'jobs' as car salesmen/women, insurance companies, banks etc. These sponsors allow them to play full time.
Gary Wolstenholme is a good example of someone walking the thin line. I would recommend you read his book if you really want to know. He did it quite successfully for about 25 years. The EGU were constantly trying to trip him up but he was their top player so it led to some funny moments.

As I said earlier even some of the County golf unions fall foul of the R&A rules.

 

[Val]

There are enough tours out there to make money from, Tartan tour and Eurpro to name 2, become a pro and play in these events for money.

Regardless of what the R&A rules are, to play for good money you need either high entry fees (Europro from memory is £500 entry for a £10k top prize) or good sponsors and people who can play to around scratch frequently wont attract the quality of sponsor to allow decent prize money.

It doesn't matter the rules, the bottom line is the cash available won't allow it to happen.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I don't disagree with that Val.
But if the good young amateurs could give it a go for a couple of years without invalidating their amateur status it may stop a lot of heartache later.
In my case as I was a pro for 7 years I had to wait 7 years to retain my amateur status. Quite farcical really.
Thankfully it is not to severe nowadays.

My Daughter moved to Scotland having played for England and had to wait 10 years before she could play in any Scottish national championships............equally daft as she could play in county events..

 

[CMAC]

There are enough tours out there to make money from, Tartan tour and Eurpro to name 2, become a pro and play in these events for money.

Regardless of what the R&A rules are, to play for good money you need either high entry fees (Europro from memory is £500 entry for a £10k top prize) or good sponsors and people who can play to around scratch frequently wont attract the quality of sponsor to allow decent prize money.

It doesn't matter the rules, the bottom line is the cash available won't allow it to happen.

didnt realise it was that steep for 'struggling' pro's. Isnt the Open only about £130 entry fee? but I suppose there are more entrants due to all the regional qualifying............just answered my own query there I think