Will this affect the pot hunters?

rulefan

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The WHS mandates that the most likely score for the hole is recorded. There is advice to go with that.
There is a procedure in the WHS manuals foe those countries recording 4BBB scores. As I recall it involves a player having a minimum number of counting holes but I can no longer find the full details.
 

Crazyface

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That surprises me. I often see values quoted at Opens. I guess they must equate to vouchers, not actual cash.

You'll note from this that I don't enter the winners enclosure too often ?

There are huge "vouchers" to be won. I was astonished to collect one of £50 for a 5th place ! Lord nkows what the bigger more expensive places dole out.
 

Wildboy370

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How on Earth can you reduce someone’s handicap based on their pairs score
You play and record both scores for every hole. Then these are entered into data base as a singles score. The club you are playing at for the comp then works out the best 4bbb score not hard. It will stop the hundreds of bandits running round the country earning a fortune from these 4bbb comps. I played in one where from 1st to 4th were all 20 handicap or higher with 51 points winning. Please don’t tell me they just had a good day. I have a HI of 10 and did 41 points and didn’t make top 15. I know of a pair who openly admit they have an eBay shop to sell all the prizes they win and make hundreds of pounds a month by it. Something has to be done to stop this.
 

HeftyHacker

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You play and record both scores for every hole. Then these are entered into data base as a singles score. The club you are playing at for the comp then works out the best 4bbb score not hard. It will stop the hundreds of bandits running round the country earning a fortune from these 4bbb comps. I played in one where from 1st to 4th were all 20 handicap or higher with 51 points winning. Please don’t tell me they just had a good day. I have a HI of 10 and did 41 points and didn’t make top 15. I know of a pair who openly admit they have an eBay shop to sell all the prizes they win and make hundreds of pounds a month by it. Something has to be done to stop this.

But then whats to stop them just NRing every hole that their score isn't counting on and being given a net double bogey for each hole that they do this on, as per WHS currently? Doesn't impact their chance of winning and doesn't lower their handicap...
 

doublebogey7

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But then whats to stop them just NRing every hole that their score isn't counting on and being given a net double bogey for each hole that they do this on, as per WHS currently? Doesn't impact their chance of winning and doesn't lower their handicap...
Firstly as I have said above their most likely score should be recorded and attested by their marker. Secondly, the scores will be recorded on WHS, so Handicap Secretary's would be able to pick up any such skullduggery.
 

Crazyface

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Firstly as I have said above their most likely score should be recorded and attested by their marker. Secondly, the scores will be recorded on WHS, so Handicap Secretary's would be able to pick up any such skullduggery.
This should be implemented immediately. Have you contacted England Golf to suggest it?
 

HeftyHacker

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Firstly as I have said above their most likely score should be recorded and attested by their marker. Secondly, the scores will be recorded on WHS, so Handicap Secretary's would be able to pick up any such skullduggery.

Genuine question here, as I don't know how this likely score situation works. But how would a marker know what someones likely score would be on a hole?

Secondly what could be done to stop people just knocking the ball about until its in the hole? Once they know their ball isn't going to count they could just rush shots and 4 putt. It would be of no consequence to the hole and their pairs score but ensure they have an individual score recorded for that hole.
 

Crazyface

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Genuine question here, as I don't know how this likely score situation works. But how would a marker know what someones likely score would be on a hole?

Secondly what could be done to stop people just knocking the ball about until its in the hole? Once they know their ball isn't going to count they could just rush shots and 4 putt. It would be of no consequence to the hole and their pairs score but ensure they have an individual score recorded for that hole.

Sure it could be tricky to do, but it would weed out the dodgey players. When you say to the player who picks up, would you agree that you'd have got a bogey / double bogey on this hole, I will attest your score as that. If they kick off, you know they are cheats and you can then refuse to attest their score at the end of the round.
 

Crazyface

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If they have picked up on the way down the fairway their score can be attested at one over the score they would need to gain one stableford point.
 

doublebogey7

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This should be implemented immediately. Have you contacted England Golf to suggest it?
No, I haven't have you?? As I said Ireland are currently trialing it on behalf of CONGU, guess implementation will depend on the result of that. While I believe it should be implemented, I also recognize its not without its problems.
 

bobmac

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Not sure it will make a massive difference if the comp was offering a signicant amount of prize money and now offered equivalent in goods. For example, win a driver, flog it on ebay, still make a fair chunk of change.

I think they should have simply capped the prize value for handicap comps to £25.00 and an invite back to defend the title next year. Few would cheat for that.

That is the only way to stop cheating handicap manipulation.
Mind you, I've been saying this for decades but nothing changes except the prizes get bigger.
 

Crazyface

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All scores can then be entered into howdidido, or the system used at the club the comp is at and the cards then handed in to be sorted as a 4bbb
 

HeftyHacker

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Sure it could be tricky to do, but it would weed out the dodgey players. When you say to the player who picks up, would you agree that you'd have got a bogey / double bogey on this hole, I will attest your score as that. If they kick off, you know they are cheats and you can then refuse to attest their score at the end of the round.

I understand agree with the idea in principal but that is far too subjective to ever truly implement. If I'm in a greenside bunker or long rough for 2 or 3. It could take anything between 2 and 4 shots to get up and down. So I wouldn't be happy with someone making an assumption on my behalf, particularly if it impacted my handicap. I'd rather just insist on holing out, but mentally I'd know it didn't really matter so I doubt I'd be spending as much time over each shot.

I agree that scores over 50 are pretty ridiculous. But I've always been of the opinion that if you're in a betterball comp with all handicaps, you need to be shooting in the high 40s to have a chance at the prizes, if that's what you're playing for.
 

Crazyface

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No, I haven't have you?? As I said Ireland are currently trialing it on behalf of CONGU, guess implementation will depend on the result of that. While I believe it should be implemented, I also recognize its not without its problems.

No, but I can do if you wish. It's a great idea. If EG have members putting it forward as a suggestion then they might even listen and adopt the idea
 

Lord Tyrion

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Sure it could be tricky to do, but it would weed out the dodgey players. When you say to the player who picks up, would you agree that you'd have got a bogey / double bogey on this hole, I will attest your score as that. If they kick off, you know they are cheats and you can then refuse to attest their score at the end of the

Most people who play in 4bbb up here enter as a 4. Not many go as a 2. Sadly that allows manipulation still as the group are in it together.

Some good thoughts being thrown out here though and just because none are perfect doesn't mean they should be dismissed. Little steps add up ?
 

HeftyHacker

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Most people who play in 4bbb up here enter as a 4. Not many go as a 2. Sadly that allows manipulation still as the group are in it together.

Some good thoughts being thrown out here though and just because none are perfect doesn't mean they should be dismissed. Little steps add up ?

There are some great ideas. And I apologise for playing devils advocate on this subject but I'm just really struggling to see a truly fair way to deal with it. Its a really fine balance that needs to be struck to punish the pot hunters and not those who have just had a great day.

Maybe the above is correct, if you have a stonker and win with 55 pts, you accept it for what it is, a great day out with some prizes but your handicap is adjusted to make it even harder to repeat.
 

Crazyface

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I understand agree with the idea in principal but that is far too subjective to ever truly implement. If I'm in a greenside bunker or long rough for 2 or 3. It could take anything between 2 and 4 shots to get up and down. So I wouldn't be happy with someone making an assumption on my behalf, particularly if it impacted my handicap. I'd rather just insist on holing out, but mentally I'd know it didn't really matter so I doubt I'd be spending as much time over each shot.

I agree that scores over 50 are pretty ridiculous. But I've always been of the opinion that if you're in a betterball comp with all handicaps, you need to be shooting in the high 40s to have a chance at the prizes, if that's what you're playing for.
Agreed, but you could accept a score of one over what you would need to score a stableford point. We use this at my place in some qualifying comps to speed up play. Also the systems used only recognise this as a score for you anyway.
 

rulefan

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The Golf Australia WHS guide has the procedure below. I don't know if this is being used in the trial in Ireland.

(E) FOUR-BALL SCORES

(i) WHEN TO USE SCORE OBTAINED IN FOUR-BALL COMPETITION FOR HANDICAPPING PURPOSES
Four-ball scores (including from mixed events) SHOULD be used for handicapping an individual player but only if the following requirements are met:
▪ The pair that the relevant player played in has a net score of at least 6 better than par (ie 42 points or better in Stableford, +6 or better in Par, etc).
▪ The individual player's score appears at least 9 times on the four-ball scorecard.
▪ The adjusted score (after the method described in (ii) below has been followed to create an individual scorecard) is equal to or better than 36 points.

(ii) PROCEDURE FOR CREATING INDIVIDUAL SCORECARD FROM FOUR-BALL SCORECARD FOR HANDICAPPING PURPOSES:
▪ Where an individual player’s score is to be handicapped (irrespective of whether the competition is played as Par, Stroke, Maximum Score, or Stableford), it must be processed as a Stableford score in accordance with the procedures contained within this regulation.
▪ When a player’s score is not recorded on the four-ball card, they are given 1½ Stableford points. (Exception: When a player’s score is not recorded on the four-ball card, and their partner’s score is 1 Stableford point, the player is given 1 Stableford point.)
▪ When a player’s score counts on the four-ball card for a hole, they are given the appropriate number of Stableford points for that hole. (When both players have 0 Stableford points on a hole, they are both considered to have their score listed on the scorecard, including for the purposes of ‘being on the card 9 times or more’. For the purposes of creating an adjusted individual scorecard, each player will have 0 points listed on the individual card for this hole.)
▪ If two identical net scores are recorded by partners on a hole, both scores are eligible to be used on an adjusted individual scorecard. However, if the first player to hole out can be readily identified, the second player is deemed to have not recorded a score for that hole.
▪ Clubs are to strongly discourage players from recording the scores of both partners on a hole or holes unless a concurrent singles event is being played. (If a concurrent singles event is being played, all scores must be handicapped as singles scores and the ‘Four-ball Scores’ handicapping regulation must not be used.) Players who regularly return four-ball scorecards featuring identical net scores for both players on the same hole will not be eligible to have these rounds handicapped – clubs should consider suspending the GA Handicaps of such players.
▪ When all the gaps in the card have been filled in, the points are totalled, and where a half appears in the total, the points total is rounded to the next lower whole number.

(iii) If an extended 18-hole individual score obtained via this method is processed through GOLF Link, the score type option to be chosen in GOLF Link by the administrator MUST be ‘Four-ball’ OR the score MUST be processed as an Ad Hoc score.

(iv) The course rating value that GOLF Link will use for this purpose is the Scratch Rating (unadjusted by any PCC). These scores must not be used in any PCC calculation. In all other respects regarding the inclusion of the score in the player’s handicap record, the score will be treated as a regular 18-hole singles competition score.

(v) The club’s Handicapping Authority should have in place a policy stipulating whether or not such scores will be processed for handicapping (see Sub-Section T below). Exceptions to the policy may be made to cater for events that have a character which is not typical to the club (such exceptions should be announced prior to the relevant day’s play).
 
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Crazyface

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Most people who play in 4bbb up here enter as a 4. Not many go as a 2. Sadly that allows manipulation still as the group are in it together.

Some good thoughts being thrown out here though and just because none are perfect doesn't mean they should be dismissed. Little steps add up ?

Players entering as four people could be split up. Easy enough. Or even get the booking software to not allow them to book the same tee time . Again, simple.
 
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