WHS Venues Away From Home Club

[Old Skier]

Are they going to rely totally on the app?

I would have thought that using a PSI terminal in the relevant clubhouse was potentially more straightforward and practical.

The PSI is an option that is definitely being looked at.

 

[rulefan]

So someone could go out and play 18 holes at an away course, inputting his score on the app as he goes. He could then stick his mates cdh id down as "the marker" and his handicap would be adjusted accordingly?

Do you really think many of your fellow club members would do that? There are many other ways of cheating if that is their intention.
I haven't seen the app but it would be possible for the marker to be asked to enter a password. But I wonder how many hcap secs really checked the signature of the marker on a supplementary score previously.

 

[rulefan]

Are they going to rely totally on the app?

I would have thought that using a PSI terminal in the relevant clubhouse was potentially more straightforward and practical.

The app will be an option. Why would they discontinue the current options?

But "Registration must be confirmed on the day itself in the manner prescribed by the club/Committee. "

 

[Swango1980]

Do you really think many of your fellow club members would do that? There are many other ways of cheating if that is their intention.
I haven't seen the app but it would be possible for the marker to be asked to enter a password. But I wonder how many hcap secs really checked the signature of the marker on a supplementary score previously.

Simple answer, yes. We had a committee member not pre-register, shoot a really good score and then several days later I saw he pre-registered a few minutes before entering his score.

So, in a nutshell, I fully expect many many incidents of abuse of the system and many handicaps being updated before anything can be done about it. Some clubs may hand out harsh punishments (IF they can prove malicious use of the system), some clubs will do nothing because they have a bare bones committee of volunteers, or just want to avoid the aggro of upsetting people and risk losing members.

Before WHS, never a problem. No Supplementary Round ever touched a players handicap until it was formally signed off by someone on the Committee.

 

[Junior]

Do you really think many of your fellow club members would do that? There are many other ways of cheating if that is their intention.
I haven't seen the app but it would be possible for the marker to be asked to enter a password. But I wonder how many hcap secs really checked the signature of the marker on a supplementary score previously.

No, no one I play with would do this. Im sure of that.

I know of people (a group of 8 in the NW), none of whom I know personally, who have been banned from opens for cheating and wouldn't put it past them.

 

[Old Skier]

Simple answer, yes. We had a committee member not pre-register, shoot a really good score and then several days later I saw he pre-registered a few minutes before entering his score.

So, in a nutshell, I fully expect many many incidents of abuse of the system and many handicaps being updated before anything can be done about it. Some clubs may hand out harsh punishments (IF they can prove malicious use of the system), some clubs will do nothing because they have a bare bones committee of volunteers, or just want to avoid the aggro of upsetting people and risk losing members.

Before WHS, never a problem. No Supplementary Round ever touched a players handicap until it was formally signed off by someone on the Committee.

What did you do to the committee member

 

[rulefan]

Simple answer, yes. We had a committee member not pre-register, shoot a really good score and then several days later I saw he pre-registered a few minutes before entering his score.

So, in a nutshell, I fully expect many many incidents of abuse of the system and many handicaps being updated before anything can be done about it. Some clubs may hand out harsh punishments (IF they can prove malicious use of the system), some clubs will do nothing because they have a bare bones committee of volunteers, or just want to avoid the aggro of upsetting people and risk losing members.

Before WHS, never a problem. No Supplementary Round ever touched a players handicap until it was formally signed off by someone on the Committee.

The score will not be released to the WHS database until it is approved by the home Hcap sec (or other authorised committee member) via the WHS platform. As I understand it, there will be a system time check between registering and score entry.

How did this member bypass the hcap sec processing it in the WHS portal?

 

[Swango1980]

What did you do to the committee member

I deleted the score and told him he couldn't do that

 

[Swango1980]

The score will not be released to the WHS database until it is approved by the home Hcap sec (or other authorised committee member) via the WHS platform. As I understand it, there will be a system time check between registering and score entry.

How did this member bypass the hcap sec processing it in the WHS portal?

Completely incorrect.

He entered his score on howdidido. His handicap automatically changed overnight and he played off new handicap at weekend.

As handicap sec, a few days later I checked General Play scores, and noticed his. So, I had to phone him to say he shouldn't have done that, deleted his score.

There is nothing that flags a score for approval.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Completely incorrect.

He entered his score on howdidido. His handicap automatically changed overnight and he played off new handicap at weekend.

As handicap sec, a few days later I checked General Play scores, and noticed his. So, I had to phone him to say he shouldn't have done that, deleted his score.

There is nothing that flags a score for approval.

Quite agree.

They used to be held until approved - not they go straight into WHS with an option for deletion.

Another reality here is volume - there will potentially hundreds of general play rounds per month in the main season so review is practically very difficult,

 

[Swango1980]

Quite agree.

They used to be held until approved - not they go straight into WHS with an option for deletion.

Another reality here is volume - there will potentially hundreds of general play rounds per month in the main season so review is practically very difficult,

Exactly, and I suspect some clubs may have real issues with this. We have nearly 500 members, but less than 100 would typically play reasonably often in comps in all sections. So, quite a few have no handicap, or only put in a few scores a year.

With WHS, suddenly they have a nice easy way to put in scores from social golf, and I can see very many starting to use this system. As handicap sec, I'll need to trawl through these scores. No doubt, some will forget to sign in, then sign in after round. Others will sign in but forget to enter score, or just not want to as they played badly, got in a sulk and binned their card.

I have zero chance of properly managing this. I contacted one guy who registered and didn't enter his score. He said people in front were too slow, so he just walked off after 9.

There is no way the Owner of the club would want me disciplining these players. One, I have no real proof they were being devious anyway. Two, some will simply join somewhere else. Maybe golfers at prestigious clubs are more likely to fall in line as they have invested a lot in that club. Not the case at our place.

 

[rulefan]

My apologies. I was told originally that general play returns would be held in a 'pending' state until approved by 'the committee'. It turns out that CONGU has now taken the US approach and decided that retrospective 'peer review' by the committee or by the marker is sufficient. However there is supposed to be a timing check that a score cannot be returned within a minimum time after registration. It would seem this is either not available with HDID (or has not been switched on).
The EG app will have the location and timing check. But it is up to the individual ISVs how they set up their PSI software or app and up to the club how they use any option the ISV may or may not provide.

 

[jim8flog]

My apologies. I was told originally that general play returns would be held in a 'pending' state until approved by 'the committee'. It turns out that CONGU has now taken the US approach and decided that retrospective 'peer review' by the committee or by the marker is sufficient. However there is supposed to be a timing check that a score cannot be returned within a minimum time after registration. It would seem this is either not available with HDID (or has not been switched on).
The EG app will have the location and timing check. But it is up to the individual ISVs how they set up their PSI software or app and up to the club how they use any option the ISV may or may not provide.

As I understand the way IG works is that you must be at the club to use the app with a tee time booked and it checks one against the other to ensure registering is done before the tee time is done before the tee time.

Prior to the WHS all Supplementary Scores were checked (photo of the card etc) before being approved to go on to a players record.

I did one card under the WHS before lockdown but I am sure it went on my WHS record before being approved.

 

[doublebogey7]

It isn't, you can reject casual scores from a home course. Or have I misunderstood your point.

Yes the club can reject, but they are not required to accept the score in order for it to enter the WHS. Or have I got that wrong.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Yes the club can reject, but they are not required to accept the score in order for it to enter the WHS. Or have I got that wrong.

No you are correct. I think the simple reason is that all the scores will need to be included in the PCC calculation overnight and hence any delay in approving them would mess up the calculation.

 

[rulefan]

Completely incorrect.

He entered his score on howdidido. His handicap automatically changed overnight and he played off new handicap at weekend.

As handicap sec, a few days later I checked General Play scores, and noticed his. So, I had to phone him to say he shouldn't have done that, deleted his score.

There is nothing that flags a score for approval.

Swango.
Just so I'm clear. How did the player keep his scores (card, phone). How did he register (manually, PSI, phone)? How did he post his return (PSI, phone)? Was is via VI or HDID?
Thanks

I'm in the middle of discussions with contacts to get to the bottom of the basic issue.

 

[doublebogey7]

No you are correct. I think the simple reason is that all the scores will need to be included in the PCC calculation overnight and hence any delay in approving them would mess up the calculation.

As well as sticking to the princple of overnight updating of handicaps. I don't think anyone wants players having to calculate their own handicap in order to play in a competition because a handicap secretary has been slow in accepting/rejecting scores.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Swango.
Just so I'm clear. How did the player keep his scores (card, phone). How did he register (manually, PSI, phone)? How did he post his return (PSI, phone)? Was is via VI or HDID?
Thanks

I'm in the middle of discussions with contacts to get to the bottom of the basic issue.

We had an of example before Christmas which illustrate some of the problems.

Context is our clubhouse was closed (no PSI). The cell signal is dire as we are in the middle of nowhere. Hence rerely heavily on the club network to enter scores and that is also not the strongest. Use Club V1 and HDID but no option to enter marker into HDID for "Casual Rounds".

Example. Player gets to the course and cannot sign in as the network isn't working. Plays and marks a card but cannot enter scores as network still not working. Player takes card home and registers and then enters score via HDID with time of registration 10 mins different from score entry. Score accepted into WHS. Review conducted afterward and facts about network established - score accepted - ie not deleted.

 

[Swango1980]

Swango.
Just so I'm clear. How did the player keep his scores (card, phone). How did he register (manually, PSI, phone)? How did he post his return (PSI, phone)? Was is via VI or HDID?
Thanks

I'm in the middle of discussions with contacts to get to the bottom of the basic issue.

We use Club V1, and we set our Club V1 settings to allow members to pre-register on HDID or the PSI Scree, and enter their scores.

So, the Player opened HDID on their Phone, and had an option to Sign In to a General Play Round (called Casual Round in HDID). Using the same process he can enter his score.

When I checked several days later, I went onto Club V1, and checked the Casual Round list. He was on the list, and there is a column for Sign In Time and Score Entry Time, so I noticed the issue.

I've also had lots of people Pre-Register but never enter a score. However, 90% of the time, it is because they didn't know what they were doing, and either thought they were signing in for an actual competition but did it on the wrong option, or they were just messing about on their phone.

 

[Old Skier]

As well as sticking to the princple of overnight updating of handicaps. I don't think anyone wants players having to calculate their own handicap in order to play in a competition because a handicap secretary has been slow in accepting/rejecting scores.

Many are volunteers so it's not always possible to keep updated on what players are up to which is why my preferred option at out club is for them to email me/club if possible to register which will remind me or one of the HC committee to sort in the evening.