WHS & ISV Issues (Please post only if you are a handicap secretary or involved in admin at your club)

wjemather

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I'm not sure I get those exact words at all, unless my eyes deceive me. On Page 38 (i.e. the page references at the bottom of each page), I read:

"As with Maximum Score, players should not pick up too soon in Stableford or Par/Bogey formats - they should play with reference to their Course Handicaps in such events and let the software deal with the competition outcome."

Are we looking at the same document. To be fair, the quickest way for me to find it is via Google. I am reading "Guidance on the WHS Rules of Handicapping as Applied within GB&I", Version 1.3 NOTE: I just noticed it is the Scottish Version, so not sure if that has anything to do with it.
The current version is 1.6 (England/Wales/Ireland) and 1.7 (Scotland).
 

Swango1980

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Professional Handicap

Sorry to ask again but we have 2 of our professionals who now have a WHS record and have been lodging cards when they play in certain club competitions. Interestingly the spread of HI is +3.5 to 3.5. These can be used to calculate team playing handicaps or individual ones depending on the event - these are mainly social / charity not board type events.

Does anyone have a policy for professionals playing in club competitions? Our was that they all play off scratch but with the evolution of WHS I'm not sure that holds.
Interesting. I was always under the impression Professionals should not be playing in Amateur Competitions (obviously Pro/AMs are OK). But, it is not something I ever looked into in detail as it didn't directly effect me.

Mind you, if professionals were just allowed to play off scratch, under any system, some of them could be laughing. Based on the last Ryder Cup and assuming they submitted their scores for handicap (based on 4ball and singles), the best performer was Dustin, with a WHS handicap of +11. So, put him against amateurs off scratch, you give him an Index 11 shots higher than it should be :) . I'd be annoyed as a +3.0 amateur, losing 3 shots on Dustin
 

Swango1980

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The current version is 1.6 (England/Wales/Ireland) and 1.7 (Scotland).
Cheers. Teach me to rely on Google. I usually go to England Golf, but find I need to referesh my mind on what links I need to go through to get the document I need. I used to use the CONGU site, which was easy, but I think they took them off there
 

mikejohnchapman

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Interesting. I was always under the impression Professionals should not be playing in Amateur Competitions (obviously Pro/AMs are OK). But, it is not something I ever looked into in detail as it didn't directly effect me.

Mind you, if professionals were just allowed to play off scratch, under any system, some of them could be laughing. Based on the last Ryder Cup and assuming they submitted their scores for handicap (based on 4ball and singles), the best performer was Dustin, with a WHS handicap of +11. So, put him against amateurs off scratch, you give him an Index 11 shots higher than it should be :) . I'd be annoyed as a +3.0 amateur, losing 3 shots on Dustin
It was the tail wagging the dog really. They only play in a couple of charity / social events each year but to enable them to get tee times / be included in teams they need a record on our system which generates an EG record (even though we tag them as professionals). I wasn't sure if the professional tag on the EG Platform would prevent a HI being generated but sure enough after the third score was submitted there it was!
 

rulefan

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I'm not sure I get those exact words at all, unless my eyes deceive me. On Page 38 (i.e. the page references at the bottom of each page), I read:

"As with Maximum Score, players should not pick up too soon in Stableford or Par/Bogey formats - they should play with reference to their Course Handicaps in such events and let the software deal with the competition outcome."

Are we looking at the same document. To be fair, the quickest way for me to find it is via Google. I am reading "Guidance on the WHS Rules of Handicapping as Applied within GB&I", Version 1.3 NOTE: I just noticed it is the Scottish Version, so not sure if that has anything to do with it.
I have

Version 1.6
England, Wales and Ireland Version


Page 39 includes

In Bogey format, if a player fails to hole out once the hole is ‘lost’ they will be credited with a Nett Double Bogey. For handicap purposes, the player should continue to play until they either hole out or their Nett Score (with reference to their Course Handicap) will be higher than a Nett Double Bogey.
 

Swango1980

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I have

Version 1.6
England, Wales and Ireland Version


Page 39 includes

In Bogey format, if a player fails to hole out once the hole is ‘lost’ they will be credited with a Nett Double Bogey. For handicap purposes, the player should continue to play until they either hole out or their Nett Score (with reference to their Course Handicap) will be higher than a Nett Double Bogey.
Indeed, I believe this was cleared up in Post 1801 :)

I'm a little surprised there have been so many versions in such a short space of time. Would be interesting to know how much has changed between Version 1.0 and the current version. I also wonder how many club handicap secretaries diligently printed out version 1.0, and maybe don't realise we are now on Version 1.6
 

rosecott

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Indeed, I believe this was cleared up in Post 1801 :)

I'm a little surprised there have been so many versions in such a short space of time. Would be interesting to know how much has changed between Version 1.0 and the current version. I also wonder how many club handicap secretaries diligently printed out version 1.0, and maybe don't realise we are now on Version 1.6

Print out?

It's 2022.
 

Swango1980

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Print out?

It's 2022.
It is. But you do realise we are talking about golf committees here? There are people in my workplace who cannot concentrate reading off a screen, and still have to print everything out. I'd imagine there are a few people on golf committees who still prefer reading of physical paper :)
 

rulefan

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Page 3 of Version 1.6 shows that "Advice on ‘picking up’ in Bogey Format to ensure best score for handicapping is recorded" was changed in Version 1.6
 

Backsticks

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Is any correction made for Bogey format scores being higher than stableford or stroke due to the different strategy approach bogey competitions promote ? ie. two putts for a win, take the two as there is nothing to gain by trying to hole the one putt, or, a long putt for a half as a 'nothing to lose' approach rather than avoiding a worse outcome of three putting ?
 

Banchory Buddha

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Is any correction made for Bogey format scores being higher than stableford or stroke due to the different strategy approach bogey competitions promote ? ie. two putts for a win, take the two as there is nothing to gain by trying to hole the one putt, or, a long putt for a half as a 'nothing to lose' approach rather than avoiding a worse outcome of three putting ?
no
 

rosecott

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Is any correction made for Bogey format scores being higher than stableford or stroke due to the different strategy approach bogey competitions promote ? ie. two putts for a win, take the two as there is nothing to gain by trying to hole the one putt, or, a long putt for a half as a 'nothing to lose' approach rather than avoiding a worse outcome of three putting ?

It's just a different format which comes with a different mindset.
 

Backsticks

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It's just a different format which comes with a different mindset.
With an inherent conflict of either scoring your best as your handicap will see it, or scoring your best as a bogey score. Inflating the hc score. I was just wondering if there was a correction factor applied to that.
 

Swango1980

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Would be interested to know if, with WHS being around for a bit of time now, if any clubs have had to communicate with members failing to submit scores, or even discipline them, suspend handicaps?

The thought crossed my mind having seen the last few scores of a friend of mine. Firstly, there are plenty of missing scores, as he pre-registered for general rounds but then never returned scores because he was fed up with how he was playing. So, his scores are from competitions. 8 rounds ago, his Index was 17.8 (and a little before that as low as 14.3, although rounds not submitted regularly, so in 2020 he was that low) In the 8 rounds since he was 17.8, his Adjusted Gross scores are:

100, 112, 101, 129, 129, 103, 97, 130

His Index is now 20.0. Because he doesn't submit scores frequently, his Hard Cap limit would be 22.1 at the moment, which he'll rapidly get to if he submits a few more similar scores.

His scores are so high because he basically gives up, and blobs many of the remaining holes. One of his excuses was he needed to walk off the course because he'd rather go home and paint a door. His 129, 129 and 130 are simply because he never bothered returning his score at all, and his club (different to mine) just put in 18 blobs.

I'd imagine such behaviour would be deemed a worry at some clubs, but I suspect his club haven't really addressed the issue yet. It is one of the more established clubs in the county, with a good reputation generally.

I can imagine he will get his mojo back at some point, and definitely be a candidate for 50 points
 

wjemather

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Would be interested to know if, with WHS being around for a bit of time now, if any clubs have had to communicate with members failing to submit scores, or even discipline them, suspend handicaps?

The thought crossed my mind having seen the last few scores of a friend of mine. Firstly, there are plenty of missing scores, as he pre-registered for general rounds but then never returned scores because he was fed up with how he was playing. So, his scores are from competitions. 8 rounds ago, his Index was 17.8 (and a little before that as low as 14.3, although rounds not submitted regularly, so in 2020 he was that low) In the 8 rounds since he was 17.8, his Adjusted Gross scores are:

100, 112, 101, 129, 129, 103, 97, 130

His Index is now 20.0. Because he doesn't submit scores frequently, his Hard Cap limit would be 22.1 at the moment, which he'll rapidly get to if he submits a few more similar scores.

His scores are so high because he basically gives up, and blobs many of the remaining holes. One of his excuses was he needed to walk off the course because he'd rather go home and paint a door. His 129, 129 and 130 are simply because he never bothered returning his score at all, and his club (different to mine) just put in 18 blobs.

I'd imagine such behaviour would be deemed a worry at some clubs, but I suspect his club haven't really addressed the issue yet. It is one of the more established clubs in the county, with a good reputation generally.
We have probably emailed about half a dozen members about unreturned competition scores (GP pretty much takes care of itself - when the PSI is functioning properly!); after investigation it turned out only a couple of those were for unacceptable reasons and players were reminded of their responsibilities, etc. We haven't needed to go beyond applying Penalty Scores, and hopefully won't, but as with most clubs, there are one or two who like to play by their own rules.

Those high scores are most likely the software submitting all zeros (rather than the club committee). We do not allow this to happen as they are not acceptable scores (and thankfully ClubV1 no longer forces an "NR" score entry/submission for unreturned scores), but I do know some clubs (perhaps in ignorance) just trust the software to deal with it - incidentally, at least one is a members club with a "good reputation" where paid office staff perform the comps/handicap admin.
 

IanMcC

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If a player does not return a score either electronically or with a scorecard, a Penalty Score is always applied by M&H. (Unless they contact me with a valid reason.)
If they pre-register with one of the apps (HDID or Wales Golf) and leave an Unsatisfied Score Intent, then the software automatically gives them a Penalty Score 4 days later. They get an auto-generated warning letter beforehand.
The main issue at our club, I suppose, is people still not knowing the difference between 'Did Not Play' and 'Played But Did Not Score' on the PSI. Hardly a comp went by this Summer without editing taking place for 'NRs'.
 

rulefan

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If a player does not return a score either electronically or with a scorecard, a Penalty Score is always applied by M&H. (Unless they contact me with a valid reason.)
If they pre-register with one of the apps (HDID or Wales Golf) and leave an Unsatisfied Score Intent, then the software automatically gives them a Penalty Score 4 days later. They get an auto-generated warning letter beforehand.
The main issue at our club, I suppose, is people still not knowing the difference between 'Did Not Play' and 'Played But Did Not Score' on the PSI. Hardly a comp went by this Summer without editing taking place for 'NRs'.
As an aside. I have just noticed the HDID app provides a good prompt when dealing with '0' score holes.

But back to the topic. We have only had to issue one warning so far.
 

mikejohnchapman

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We haven't had to issue any formal warnings or sanctions thus far. A few people have been spoken to by the section Captain and this appears to have solved the problem. Generally, we have a "three strikes" rule for NRs in a calendar year, so nobody has been sanctioned since WHS came in.

As far as GP rounds are concerned, we have stopped chasing missing scores and allow automatic penalties to be given if the player doesn't do anything. We have a lot of GP scores (200+ pcm) and are running at between 3 and 6 penalties per month.
 

mikejohnchapman

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I have been trying to find what happens to completed rounds if a competition is subsequently abandoned.

Do completed rounds still count for handicap purposes or are they all reversed out?
 
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