WHS & ISV Issues (Please post only if you are a handicap secretary or involved in admin at your club)
- Thread starter Old Skier
- Start date
Swango1980
Well-known member
Interesting. I was always under the impression Professionals should not be playing in Amateur Competitions (obviously Pro/AMs are OK). But, it is not something I ever looked into in detail as it didn't directly effect me.
Mind you, if professionals were just allowed to play off scratch, under any system, some of them could be laughing. Based on the last Ryder Cup and assuming they submitted their scores for handicap (based on 4ball and singles), the best performer was Dustin, with a WHS handicap of +11. So, put him against amateurs off scratch, you give him an Index 11 shots higher than it should be
. I'd be annoyed as a +3.0 amateur, losing 3 shots on DustinSwango1980
Well-known member
Cheers. Teach me to rely on Google. I usually go to England Golf, but find I need to referesh my mind on what links I need to go through to get the document I need. I used to use the CONGU site, which was easy, but I think they took them off there
mikejohnchapman
Challenge Tour Pro
It was the tail wagging the dog really. They only play in a couple of charity / social events each year but to enable them to get tee times / be included in teams they need a record on our system which generates an EG record (even though we tag them as professionals). I wasn't sure if the professional tag on the EG Platform would prevent a HI being generated but sure enough after the third score was submitted there it was!Interesting. I was always under the impression Professionals should not be playing in Amateur Competitions (obviously Pro/AMs are OK). But, it is not something I ever looked into in detail as it didn't directly effect me.
Mind you, if professionals were just allowed to play off scratch, under any system, some of them could be laughing. Based on the last Ryder Cup and assuming they submitted their scores for handicap (based on 4ball and singles), the best performer was Dustin, with a WHS handicap of +11. So, put him against amateurs off scratch, you give him an Index 11 shots higher than it should be
rulefan
Tour Winner
I have
Version 1.6
England, Wales and Ireland Version
Page 39 includes
In Bogey format, if a player fails to hole out once the hole is ‘lost’ they will be credited with a Nett Double Bogey. For handicap purposes, the player should continue to play until they either hole out or their Nett Score (with reference to their Course Handicap) will be higher than a Nett Double Bogey.
Swango1980
Well-known member
Indeed, I believe this was cleared up in Post 1801
I'm a little surprised there have been so many versions in such a short space of time. Would be interesting to know how much has changed between Version 1.0 and the current version. I also wonder how many club handicap secretaries diligently printed out version 1.0, and maybe don't realise we are now on Version 1.6
rosecott
Money List Winner
Indeed, I believe this was cleared up in Post 1801
I'm a little surprised there have been so many versions in such a short space of time. Would be interesting to know how much has changed between Version 1.0 and the current version. I also wonder how many club handicap secretaries diligently printed out version 1.0, and maybe don't realise we are now on Version 1.6
Print out?
It's 2022.
Swango1980
Well-known member
It is. But you do realise we are talking about golf committees here? There are people in my workplace who cannot concentrate reading off a screen, and still have to print everything out. I'd imagine there are a few people on golf committees who still prefer reading of physical paper
rulefan
Tour Winner
Page 3 of Version 1.6 shows that "Advice on ‘picking up’ in Bogey Format to ensure best score for handicapping is recorded" was changed in Version 1.6
Is any correction made for Bogey format scores being higher than stableford or stroke due to the different strategy approach bogey competitions promote ? ie. two putts for a win, take the two as there is nothing to gain by trying to hole the one putt, or, a long putt for a half as a 'nothing to lose' approach rather than avoiding a worse outcome of three putting ?
D
Deleted member 30522
Guest
rosecott
Money List Winner
It's just a different format which comes with a different mindset.
With an inherent conflict of either scoring your best as your handicap will see it, or scoring your best as a bogey score. Inflating the hc score. I was just wondering if there was a correction factor applied to that.
Swango1980
Well-known member
Would be interested to know if, with WHS being around for a bit of time now, if any clubs have had to communicate with members failing to submit scores, or even discipline them, suspend handicaps?
The thought crossed my mind having seen the last few scores of a friend of mine. Firstly, there are plenty of missing scores, as he pre-registered for general rounds but then never returned scores because he was fed up with how he was playing. So, his scores are from competitions. 8 rounds ago, his Index was 17.8 (and a little before that as low as 14.3, although rounds not submitted regularly, so in 2020 he was that low) In the 8 rounds since he was 17.8, his Adjusted Gross scores are:
100, 112, 101, 129, 129, 103, 97, 130
His Index is now 20.0. Because he doesn't submit scores frequently, his Hard Cap limit would be 22.1 at the moment, which he'll rapidly get to if he submits a few more similar scores.
His scores are so high because he basically gives up, and blobs many of the remaining holes. One of his excuses was he needed to walk off the course because he'd rather go home and paint a door. His 129, 129 and 130 are simply because he never bothered returning his score at all, and his club (different to mine) just put in 18 blobs.
I'd imagine such behaviour would be deemed a worry at some clubs, but I suspect his club haven't really addressed the issue yet. It is one of the more established clubs in the county, with a good reputation generally.
I can imagine he will get his mojo back at some point, and definitely be a candidate for 50 points
The thought crossed my mind having seen the last few scores of a friend of mine. Firstly, there are plenty of missing scores, as he pre-registered for general rounds but then never returned scores because he was fed up with how he was playing. So, his scores are from competitions. 8 rounds ago, his Index was 17.8 (and a little before that as low as 14.3, although rounds not submitted regularly, so in 2020 he was that low) In the 8 rounds since he was 17.8, his Adjusted Gross scores are:
100, 112, 101, 129, 129, 103, 97, 130
His Index is now 20.0. Because he doesn't submit scores frequently, his Hard Cap limit would be 22.1 at the moment, which he'll rapidly get to if he submits a few more similar scores.
His scores are so high because he basically gives up, and blobs many of the remaining holes. One of his excuses was he needed to walk off the course because he'd rather go home and paint a door. His 129, 129 and 130 are simply because he never bothered returning his score at all, and his club (different to mine) just put in 18 blobs.
I'd imagine such behaviour would be deemed a worry at some clubs, but I suspect his club haven't really addressed the issue yet. It is one of the more established clubs in the county, with a good reputation generally.
I can imagine he will get his mojo back at some point, and definitely be a candidate for 50 points
wjemather
Well-known member
We have probably emailed about half a dozen members about unreturned competition scores (GP pretty much takes care of itself - when the PSI is functioning properly!); after investigation it turned out only a couple of those were for unacceptable reasons and players were reminded of their responsibilities, etc. We haven't needed to go beyond applying Penalty Scores, and hopefully won't, but as with most clubs, there are one or two who like to play by their own rules.
Those high scores are most likely the software submitting all zeros (rather than the club committee). We do not allow this to happen as they are not acceptable scores (and thankfully ClubV1 no longer forces an "NR" score entry/submission for unreturned scores), but I do know some clubs (perhaps in ignorance) just trust the software to deal with it - incidentally, at least one is a members club with a "good reputation" where paid office staff perform the comps/handicap admin.
IanMcC
Well-known member
If a player does not return a score either electronically or with a scorecard, a Penalty Score is always applied by M&H. (Unless they contact me with a valid reason.)
If they pre-register with one of the apps (HDID or Wales Golf) and leave an Unsatisfied Score Intent, then the software automatically gives them a Penalty Score 4 days later. They get an auto-generated warning letter beforehand.
The main issue at our club, I suppose, is people still not knowing the difference between 'Did Not Play' and 'Played But Did Not Score' on the PSI. Hardly a comp went by this Summer without editing taking place for 'NRs'.
If they pre-register with one of the apps (HDID or Wales Golf) and leave an Unsatisfied Score Intent, then the software automatically gives them a Penalty Score 4 days later. They get an auto-generated warning letter beforehand.
The main issue at our club, I suppose, is people still not knowing the difference between 'Did Not Play' and 'Played But Did Not Score' on the PSI. Hardly a comp went by this Summer without editing taking place for 'NRs'.
rulefan
Tour Winner
As an aside. I have just noticed the HDID app provides a good prompt when dealing with '0' score holes.
But back to the topic. We have only had to issue one warning so far.
mikejohnchapman
Challenge Tour Pro
We haven't had to issue any formal warnings or sanctions thus far. A few people have been spoken to by the section Captain and this appears to have solved the problem. Generally, we have a "three strikes" rule for NRs in a calendar year, so nobody has been sanctioned since WHS came in.
As far as GP rounds are concerned, we have stopped chasing missing scores and allow automatic penalties to be given if the player doesn't do anything. We have a lot of GP scores (200+ pcm) and are running at between 3 and 6 penalties per month.
As far as GP rounds are concerned, we have stopped chasing missing scores and allow automatic penalties to be given if the player doesn't do anything. We have a lot of GP scores (200+ pcm) and are running at between 3 and 6 penalties per month.
Old Skier
Tour Winner
I have one numpty who always presses the GP button on the PSI instead of the enter comp. Forever having to sort him.
mikejohnchapman
Challenge Tour Pro
I have been trying to find what happens to completed rounds if a competition is subsequently abandoned.
Do completed rounds still count for handicap purposes or are they all reversed out?
Do completed rounds still count for handicap purposes or are they all reversed out?
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