WHS & ISV Issues (Please post only if you are a handicap secretary or involved in admin at your club)

[rulefan]

You have one "W"orld system, so it would have actually saved a ton of money over every country doing their own thing.

But who would decide which country the software supplier and hardware host supplier would be in? Would the USGA agree to China? Would the Argentina agree to the UK?

But why do you presume the system relates to computers? It is simply an organized procedure. No more no less.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

But why do you presume the system relates to computers? It is simply an organized procedure. No more no less.

We're talking about the systems not talking to each other, what did you think the non-posting of foreign scores meant? We already have to do this manually, we're discussing not doing it manually, but having software that talks to each other, the best way to have done that is have one official provider of the WHS handicapping application.

But who would decide which country the software supplier and hardware host supplier would be in? Would the USGA agree to China? Would the Argentina agree to the UK?

There are two governing bodies for the sport which all countries align with now, in Scotland & the USA, they are the ones who implemented WHS, it would surely make sense for them to tender the job, and facilitate the roll-out would it not?

 

[rulefan]

We're talking about the systems not talking to each other, what did you think the non-posting of foreign scores meant? We already have to do this manually, we're discussing not doing it manually, but having software that talks to each other, the best way to have done that is have one official provider of the WHS handicapping application.

There are two governing bodies for the sport which all countries align with now, in Scotland & the USA, they are the ones who implemented WHS, it would surely make sense for them to tender the job, and facilitate the roll-out would it not?

May be. But at what cost to me and the millions who never venture outside their country?
But why build a computer system that had to cope with all the manual variants in the current procedures, some of which were only decided on at the last minute.
"If the round is played in XX do this ...
or if the round is played in XX do that ...
otherwise do ...."

Further, would this worldwide system have to handle all the associated front end functions built in to the current ISV software?

 

[Banchory Buddha]

But why build a computer system that had to cope with all the manual variants in the current procedures, some of which were only decided on at the last minute.
"If the round is played in XX do this ...
or if the round is played in XX do that ...
otherwise do ...."

While time consuming, that's not undoable by any means.

Further, would this worldwide system have to handle all the associated front end functions built in to the current ISV software?

The worldwide system is for handicaps, your ISV provider currently has whatever jusridiction you are in already plugging in the link to the handicap master dataase, so that wouldn;t be any different

May be. But at what cost to me and the millions who never venture outside their country?

Which of course is the argument most of us have made right from the beginning, a "world" system that virtually nobody will ever use, and as we now know is being implemented in a varity of different ways in different countries, making it's "world" claim even more nonsensical.

 

[rulefan]

Which of course is the argument most of us have made right from the beginning, a "world" system that virtually nobody will ever use, and as we now know is being implemented in a varity of different ways in different countries, making it's "world" claim even more nonsensical.

I don't believe the seven WHS bodies ever claimed that this was to be the end product.
Inter alia, they said "the 15 million golfers in 80 countries they cumulatively represent — will lay aside their differences and begin adhering to the same rules. " (My emphasis)
"We also want to make those handicaps more portable. ”
IMO they have made a pretty good start.

 

[wjemather]

...and as we now know is being implemented in a varity of different ways in different countries, making it's "world" claim even more nonsensical.

Absolute rubbish, as usual. It was repeatedly stated that local authorities would be able to tailor WHS to how golf is played in their jurisdiction.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

I don't believe the seven WHS bodies ever claimed that this was to be the end product.
Inter alia, they said "the 15 million golfers in 80 countries they cumulatively represent — will lay aside their differences and begin adhering to the same rules. " (My emphasis)
"We also want to make those handicaps more portable. ”
IMO they have made a pretty good start.

I can assure you Scottish Golf did make just such a claim

 

[rulefan]

I can assure you Scottish Golf did make just such a claim

What was it they were claiming and where?

 

[Old Skier]

I can assure you Scottish Golf did make just such a claim

Scottish and English governing bodies can’t agree amongst themselves so I’m not sure how or why the Scottish body should make such a claim.

 

[rulefan]

A pilot scheme allowing golfers in England and Scotland to more easily cross borders and put in a score for handicap is set to be unveiled next year.

England Golf have given details of the World Handicap System integration project they are working on with Scottish Golf alongside the R&A and the WHS Interoperability Group.

Despite being one of the key planks on which WHS was sold – the chance to record an acceptable score that counts on courses across the globe – the reality for golfers has been different.

Back in April, we reported how various systems managing WHS across a number of jurisdictions couldn’t talk to each other. That has meant golfers haven’t been able to use their digital app or a touchscreen to submit scores in some other countries – instead having to carry out a convoluted process, which included pre-registering intent to score at the course played, submitting it, and then taking a copy or photograph of the scorecard and handing it into home clubs.

Now part of this two-pronged pilot will focus on the “ability to automatically transfer scores from rounds played and submitted at clubs in England to a player’s Scottish record and vice-versa”.

England Golf said they aim to have that available in 2022.

Looking at the background, the Woodhall Spa-based body explained that England, Wales and Ireland had adopted the same operating system to roll out the World Handicap System but, in Scotland and other countries around the world, “the administration system chosen to implement the same WHS calculation does vary in design”.

They continued: “The pilot scheme between England and Scotland will help provide a blueprint that allows each platform to ‘speak’ to each other and allow greater connectivity between national associations in the future”.

The other part of the pilot scheme will give clubs in both countries the ability to look up the handicap index of a player by inputting their ID number into the system. That is already available through England Golf’s WHS platform.

England Golf said: “There is a long-standing tradition of golfers from both sides of the border enjoying trips either north or south to experience new courses or re-visit old favourites.

“As a consequence, England Golf and Scottish Golf fully recognise the importance of this pilot and are working in close collaboration with The R&A and the WHS Interoperability Group as we move towards a fully connected WHS.”

 

[Banchory Buddha]

What was it they were claiming and where?

"The New system will allow players to play in any country equally with the local players" or some such drivel (my paraphrase.

I believe it was on their hive.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

Scottish and English governing bodies can’t agree amongst themselves so I’m not sure how or why the Scottish body should make such a claim.

Arrogance, and an inability to listen to any feedback is their modus operandi

 

[wjemather]

"The New system will allow players to play in any country equally with the local players" or some such drivel (my paraphrase.

I believe it was on their hive.

It's equitably rather than equally, but that aside... you do understand that this is actually what has happened, don't you?

 

[Deleted member 3432]

A pilot scheme allowing golfers in England and Scotland to more easily cross borders and put in a score for handicap is set to be unveiled next year.

England Golf have given details of the World Handicap System integration project they are working on with Scottish Golf alongside the R&A and the WHS Interoperability Group.

Despite being one of the key planks on which WHS was sold – the chance to record an acceptable score that counts on courses across the globe – the reality for golfers has been different.

Back in April, we reported how various systems managing WHS across a number of jurisdictions couldn’t talk to each other. That has meant golfers haven’t been able to use their digital app or a touchscreen to submit scores in some other countries – instead having to carry out a convoluted process, which included pre-registering intent to score at the course played, submitting it, and then taking a copy or photograph of the scorecard and handing it into home clubs.

Now part of this two-pronged pilot will focus on the “ability to automatically transfer scores from rounds played and submitted at clubs in England to a player’s Scottish record and vice-versa”.

England Golf said they aim to have that available in 2022.

Looking at the background, the Woodhall Spa-based body explained that England, Wales and Ireland had adopted the same operating system to roll out the World Handicap System but, in Scotland and other countries around the world, “the administration system chosen to implement the same WHS calculation does vary in design”.

They continued: “The pilot scheme between England and Scotland will help provide a blueprint that allows each platform to ‘speak’ to each other and allow greater connectivity between national associations in the future”.

The other part of the pilot scheme will give clubs in both countries the ability to look up the handicap index of a player by inputting their ID number into the system. That is already available through England Golf’s WHS platform.

England Golf said: “There is a long-standing tradition of golfers from both sides of the border enjoying trips either north or south to experience new courses or re-visit old favourites.

“As a consequence, England Golf and Scottish Golf fully recognise the importance of this pilot and are working in close collaboration with The R&A and the WHS Interoperability Group as we move towards a fully connected WHS.”

Hurray.....

Should cheer up our Scottish members when this eventually happens.

Shame it's taking so long.....

 

[rulefan]

"The New system will allow players to play in any country equally with the local players" or some such drivel (my paraphrase.

I believe it was on their hive.

What has that got to do with inter-connecting scores between databases?

We're talking about the systems not talking to each other, what did you think the non-posting of foreign scores meant? We already have to do this manually, we're discussing not doing it manually,

 

[Banchory Buddha]

What has that got to do with inter-connecting scores between databases?

You're like a two Ronnies sketch, the matermind one, "answering the question before last"


You said "We also want to make those handicaps more portable. ” - that's what was one of the main claims of SG when this was launched, and it's anything but at present. That's what it's got to do with inter-connecting databases

 

[wjemather]

You said "We also want to make those handicaps more portable. ” - that's what was one of the main claims of SG when this was launched, and it's anything but at present. That's what it's got to do with inter-connecting databases

You are totally misunderstanding what is meant by handicaps being portable. It simply means players can compete equitably anywhere because handicaps are directly comparable. It has nothing to do with handicap records, or even individual scores, being transferred between jurisdictions.

 

[rulefan]

You're like a two Ronnies sketch, the matermind one, "answering the question before last"


You said "We also want to make those handicaps more portable. ” - that's what was one of the main claims of SG when this was launched, and it's anything but at present. That's what it's got to do with inter-connecting databases

Portability is about the players handicap itself not about how about the scoring records are transported around the world
The same basic calculations are performed whenever a round has been played and before the next one is played. One very low score does not result in a substantial reduction in one jurisdiction but produce no discernible change in another. Handicaps are recalculated daily everywhere as opposed to fortnightly in some areas.

 

[wjemather]

Getting back to ISV issues... I'm looking for assistance. Specifically, I'd like information on how the various ISVs (particularly interested in Golf Genius, which our club are leaning towards as a replacement for ClubV1 as it links with BRS) deal with the following irritations with respect to the rules:

1. Handicap on scorecard too low
2. Scorecard not returned

With ClubV1, neither of these things are dealt with acceptably and CSI's response (having intermittently re-raised the issues for the past 18 months) seems pretty clueless.

1. The suggestion by CSI is to amend the score accordingly in ClubV1 and then correct it on WHS: "I have confirmed with our development team that due to the licencing agreement with the Golf Unions we are unable to transmit handicaps , due to this all scores that are being processed under rule 3.3b must be entered directly onto the WHS platform." To me, it seems obvious that what is required is a simple facility to override the calculated Course Handicap in the competition software, and at no point would there be a requirement to "transmit handicaps" with the actual gross scores being sent to WHS as normal (and no need for scores to be "entered directly onto the WHS platform").
2. Similarly to the above, ClubV1 gives the option to "do nothing" or "apply NR" (i.e. 18 NDBs), and then requires manually fixing everything on the WHS Platform. Only the first option complies with the RoH, but overlooks the need for following up the non-return, which surely could easily be automated (in the same way GP score now are) by simply registering an intent on WHS.

Thanks.

 

[IanMcC]

Interesting one today. Got an email from a chap who wondered why his index changed from 12.5 to 12.6, when the differential that was replaced was the same as the one inserted, 14.7.
Its obvious I suppose, but I found it interesting. The old round was at a different course, with a different Slope Rating and Course Rating. The exact differential from that one was 14.67177.
The new round had a differential of 14.7429. That difference, when averaged out with the other 7 scores, was enough to put him up 0.1.

OK, I'll get my coat.......