WHS & ISV Issues (Please post only if you are a handicap secretary or involved in admin at your club)

rulefan

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Adding a markers name does not achieve certification (attestation) by a marker as it is all done by the player. HDID has certification by player only, not by marker.

(Current) HDID functionality is effectively the same as the player marking their own scorecard, signing as the player and printing their markers name - all of this can happen without the marker ever having seen the scorecard.
Isn't the HDID marker functionality dependent on the type of score being submitted? Comp v General play.
 

wjemather

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Isn't the HDID marker functionality dependent on the type of score being submitted? Comp v General play.
It's the same for both competition and gp rounds.

There is the following message at the bottom of the marker selection box which (subtly) confirms that the app does not in itself provide certification as required by the rules: "You are now responsible for marking your own score, please ensure you verify each hole score with your designated marker."
 

rulefan

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It's the same for both competition and gp rounds.

There is the following message at the bottom of the marker selection box which (subtly) confirms that the app does not in itself provide certification as required by the rules: "You are now responsible for marking your own score, please ensure you verify each hole score with your designated marker."
Thanks.

PS. Just looking through old(ish) correspondence it is something that EG have told/asked V1 to do.
 
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IG App for Competition Scores
Has anyone been using the IG App without the use of physical card for competition scoring in terms of marking another players score? Watched their video but seem to find these answers

1) Does it work Ok?
2) How do M&H know who the players marker was?
3) Without a physical card I assume the player takes a screen shot of the score card at the end and this gets sent?

Thanks
 

mikejohnchapman

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Interpreting the Handicap Review Report

I was looking at this report which we have not used before but I am struggling to understand the information it is giving.

Could someone help interpret the attached report and give me a clue to what actions may be appropriate given the "flagged" players selected.

Thanks in anticipation.
 

Attachments

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I think your anticipation might be unfulfilled....our H.Sec had a look at the report a weeks or so ago and he himself was flagged as having several high scores....even though his index is on a general downward trend!!!

I suspect somewhere there is a manual telling you how to interpret what the report is telling you....





...juts that no one has bothered publishing it yet.
 

wjemather

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Interpreting the Handicap Review Report

I was looking at this report which we have not used before but I am struggling to understand the information it is giving.

Could someone help interpret the attached report and give me a clue to what actions may be appropriate given the "flagged" players selected.

Thanks in anticipation.
My view is that it just shows players with an unusual number of high/low scores that may warrant further investigation.

The soft/hard cap report is more useful for identifying those struggling to play near their handicap. Also through this report I have noticed several players being immediately capped upon entering their 20th score due to having one good one in their first few and a very low early index as a result - one player had a cut of more than 3 after putting their (non-counting) 20th score in!! This is clearly an oversight of the system and resetting of the low index has been required in these cases. Something to keep an eye on.
 

tobybarker

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Well, now that I've joined another club ( a well established club one would say) I am now getting a taste of issues with implementing WHS, especially when there is confusion on what is required.

I handed in my first general play rounds. Pre-registered, entered score on howdidido after, and then submitted physical signed card in the relevant box. However, a few days later, it became clear that my score appeared twice on my record, and all my playing partners scores ended up on their record (despite them never having any intention to submit card for handicap). Turns out, someone at the club enters every score on every card when they collect the physical cards.

I've now been told by the club that it should be made clear on the card if the scores have already been entered, otherwise they will have to check each players individual record first to see if this is actually the case (a step they do not want to take). Furthermore, they have told me that pre-registration was only a requirement under Congu, and under WHS technically every score should count. Therefore, that is why they enter every score they can from all the physical cards, and that if I do not want the scores to count, they should be scored out (ironically, even if every score did have to count, scoring any score out would then invalidate that requirement).

Concerning really. I've randomly looked at the record of about a dozen members, and most had duplicate rounds on their record where the same thing must have happened (some more than one pair of duplicate rounds). No idea how many scores have been entered for players who had never pre-registered. It also suggests that a player can easily manipulate their handicap upwards or downwards by effectively choosing what general play rounds to submit (they can even get that round to count twice if they enter it themselves, and then someone at club also enters it later).

It makes me wonder how well other clubs have been able to implement WHS since its launch. I've spent so much time over the last 2 or so years researching it and finding out more and more info, much of it on here. I fully expect people in this forum have also been able to get to grips with it, maybe the only issues being the tech and all the early bugs / issues. However, how many clubs out there have not had people that have had the time to fully get their heads around it? Or, perhaps new handicap secretaries who have not had the background research over the last couple of years? I fully expect there to be issues at "smaller" clubs, but it appears this can affect even the bigger clubs who have the advantage of having some full time staff.
Our club had the same issue, and maybe still does though I enter enough comps now that I don't need to record casuals.

Reading through this thread (takes a while!) Makes it clear the system is a mess but for all I know it always was. It's always been down to trust that groups will put the right scores down on the card, and that's no different once electronic scoring is adopted.
 

Swango1980

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Our club had the same issue, and maybe still does though I enter enough comps now that I don't need to record casuals.

Reading through this thread (takes a while!) Makes it clear the system is a mess but for all I know it always was. It's always been down to trust that groups will put the right scores down on the card, and that's no different once electronic scoring is adopted.
I think electronic scoring just brings in another stage where errors can be made. Easier to make mistakes with fat fingers, compared to specifically writing a number on a card. A chap at our club is STILL shown to have a hole in one on our par 5 15th from over a month ago, when he really scored a 10+. On a card, a marker would have immediately seen their total was incorrect. Entering on howdidido, no such safety net. Wonder if they got their Hugo Boss watch from HDID for a hole in 1? :)
 
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Old Skier

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I think electronic scoring just brings in another stage where errors can be made. Easier to make mistakes with fat fingers, compared to specifically writing a number on a card. A chap at our club is STILL shown to have a hole in one on our par 5 15th from over a month ago, when he really scored a 10+. On a card, a marker would have immediately seen their total was incorrect. Entering on howdidido, no such safety net. Wonder if they got their Hugo Boss watch from HDID for a hole in 1? :)
There is a safety net on the PSI as it won’t move on automatically, is this not the case on the app, if not I will contact V1
 

Swango1980

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There is a safety net on the PSI as it won’t move on automatically, is this not the case on the app, if not I will contact V1
In all honest, I am not sure. Do not know if the player entered this on PSI or App. I know when a 1 is typed, there often is a delay to allow you to enter another digit. But, I guess if you are too slow, it moves on anyway. I know at my last club players entered a hole in 1 on numerous occasions when they had 10+. I'm pretty sure the App does give a pause, otherwise we'd see lots of hole in 1's when players have been using it to enter scores.

Truth is, as a competition, it should have been changed, but it wasn't. And that is an obvious error. It makes you wonder how many electronic scores, especially from general play, that are very very wrong due to player mistakes and having no one to verify their score (especially when entering on howdidido). Having checked quite a few on the occasions I actually received the physical card by the player, it is clear you cannot rely on faith and good will that players will get it right. I have seen plenty of errors, some of them significant errors (like entering the score, not for them, but for another player on the card)
 

mikejohnchapman

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I think electronic scoring just brings in another stage where errors can be made. Easier to make mistakes with fat fingers, compared to specifically writing a number on a card. A chap at our club is STILL shown to have a hole in one on our par 5 15th from over a month ago, when he really scored a 10+. On a card, a marker would have immediately seen their total was incorrect. Entering on howdidido, no such safety net. Wonder if they got their Hugo Boss watch from HDID for a hole in 1? :)
Yep, the guy who "scored" a 1 on a par 5 at our club is still getting inundated with eMails to claim his watch, tie, ......
 

mikejohnchapman

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Problem with late overnight update.

We had a situation in a comp today where a lady signed-in via HowDidIDo and was given a playing handicap of 16 based on her handicap index. When she went to enter her score after the round on the PSI terminal her HI had increased and she was given a HI of 17. I appears the Club V1 system had updated between sign-in and score entry, presumably from the EG WHS system.

The question is which playing handicap should she use - the one at sign-in or the one at score entry?
 

wjemather

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Problem with late overnight update.

We had a situation in a comp today where a lady signed-in via HowDidIDo and was given a playing handicap of 16 based on her handicap index. When she went to enter her score after the round on the PSI terminal her HI had increased and she was given a HI of 17. I appears the Club V1 system had updated between sign-in and score entry, presumably from the EG WHS system.

The question is which playing handicap should she use - the one at sign-in or the one at score entry?
Whichever one agrees with WHS.

I suspect that your ClubV1 (which includes the PSI) is (and always was) up-to-date but the handicap list has simply not been published to Howdidido since ClubV1 did it's daily update from WHS.

This can be done manually from ClubV1 -> Golf/Competitions Hub -> HDID Publish -> Handicaps, but be aware that it can take more than the 2 hours indicated.

Interestingly Club Systems do not seem to have a solution for forcing ClubV1 to perform a global download from WHS should that process fail overnight.
 

Swango1980

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I normally use HDID to enter my general play rounds (which has loads of issues they need to resolve, but I'll not get into those). However, used the MyEG one on Friday as I was playing at another course. I was generally quite impressed, especially as it reminds you to check a possible error when the guy you're playing with puts in a different score to you (both of us set up scorecards, so were entering scores after each hole). I also liked to fact it kept a running total of everyone's score. I notice there is s side bet option, not sure what this allows, match play perhaps?

Anyway, one thing I noticed afterwards is that it immediately updated my handicap index on the WHS, assuming PCC was zero. The following day, my Index changed slightly as PCC was changed to -1. This is what I'd expect, and if I was playing 2 rounds in a day, then I'd assume the Index I use for the 2nd round would be the updated WHS Index based on PCC=0. What is odd is that, when I use HDID and submit the score, the score almost immediately appears on my scoring history on WHS. However, it is not used for my Index calculation until the following day. My Scoring history will still show my 21st oldest score in my last 20 (and counting if in my best 8), and will only refresh the following day. I'm assuming this is just another issue the ISV needs to review?
 
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Anyway, one thing I noticed afterwards is that it immediately updated my handicap index on the WHS, assuming PCC was zero. The following day, my Index changed slightly as PCC was changed to -1. This is what I'd expect, and if I was playing 2 rounds in a day, then I'd assume the Index I use for the 2nd round would be the updated WHS Index based on PCC=0. What is odd is that, when I use HDID and submit the score, the score almost immediately appears on my scoring history on WHS. However, it is not used for my Index calculation until the following day. My Scoring history will still show my 21st oldest score in my last 20 (and counting if in my best 8), and will only refresh the following day. I'm assuming this is just another issue the ISV needs to review?
Scores only refresh overnight, and your home association is now the keeper of your handicap record, any ISVs are not going to be updating like your actual CDH record on the English Golf App.
 

Swango1980

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Scores only refresh overnight, and your home association is now the keeper of your handicap record, any ISVs are not going to be updating like your actual CDH record on the English Golf App.
Interesting. Imagine a scenario where I have a match play event in afternoon, but play an Acceptable round in morning.

I start the day with an index of 7.0, course handicap of 9. In the morning round, I go round in level par. I enter in howdidido (may be a comp or general play). In afternoon match play, I still have an Index of 7.0.

However, let us say I enter my morning round in MyEG instead as general play. By afternoon round, MyEG says my Index is 6.3 and course handicap of 8. Therefore, I presume that is the handicap I now need to use in match play.

I can see the inconsistency there.
 

wjemather

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Interesting. Imagine a scenario where I have a match play event in afternoon, but play an Acceptable round in morning.

I start the day with an index of 7.0, course handicap of 9. In the morning round, I go round in level par. I enter in howdidido (may be a comp or general play). In afternoon match play, I still have an Index of 7.0.

However, let us say I enter my morning round in MyEG instead as general play. By afternoon round, MyEG says my Index is 6.3 and course handicap of 8. Therefore, I presume that is the handicap I now need to use in match play.

I can see the inconsistency there.
The "new index" being shown by MyEG is really a prediction - the same gets shown on the WHS platform, except that it is phrased "x.x changing to y.y tomorrow". As such, according to the WHS Platform, which is the master, your handicap index does not actually change until overnight recalculations are done.
 
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