WHS & ISV Issues (Please post only if you are a handicap secretary or involved in admin at your club)

[Old Skier]

Apps that do not meet the requirements of the Rules of Golf simply cannot be accepted (without additional actions to fill these gaps).

Can you say what the difference between an app and the PSI is.

 

[Old Skier]

I think that is only the case for General Play scores, not for comps (yet)

I'll check tomorrow

 

[SammmeBee]

Can you say what the difference between an app and the PSI is.

One you need a scorecard and the other you don’t…..

 

[wjemather]

Can you say what the difference between an app and the PSI is.

With regards to effective functionality, there is currently no difference between PSI and HDID - both require a physical scorecard (or alternative method of certification).

 

[IanMcC]

Rightly or wrongly, I am DQing cards with one signature. Wales went to COVID level zero today. Absolutely no excuse for not having written verification now. As for apps taking over from cards, that would be a black day indeed. A quick trawl through these pages reveals the problems that beset casual rounds being entered via app alone. I know it wont suit all M&H people, but I have informed members that, to pre-register, they contact me by email, text, whatsapp or phone before they play and send me a picture of the card when they finish. Getting about 15 a week, which is completely managable. We do have 3 comps a week though.

 

[rulefan]

Rightly or wrongly, I am DQing cards with one signature. Wales went to COVID level zero today. Absolutely no excuse for not having written verification now. As for apps taking over from cards, that would be a black day indeed. A quick trawl through these pages reveals the problems that beset casual rounds being entered via app alone. I know it wont suit all M&H people, but I have informed members that, to pre-register, they contact me by email, text, whatsapp or phone before they play and send me a picture of the card when they finish. Getting about 15 a week, which is completely managable. We do have 3 comps a week though.

Are you DQing for competition purposes or not processing handicaps for those cards? What instructions or guidance has the WGU given?

 

[Old Skier]

Rightly or wrongly, I am DQing cards with one signature. Wales went to COVID level zero today. Absolutely no excuse for not having written verification now. As for apps taking over from cards, that would be a black day indeed. A quick trawl through these pages reveals the problems that beset casual rounds being entered via app alone. I know it wont suit all M&H people, but I have informed members that, to pre-register, they contact me by email, text, whatsapp or phone before they play and send me a picture of the card when they finish. Getting about 15 a week, which is completely managable. We do have 3 comps a week though.

I'm not sure what the Welsh authorities are sending out to their members but EG latest members email strongly suggests that pre registering on the app is an acceptable method of registration (casual rounds) . I appreciate that clubs could make their own rules for casual rounds but again IMO clubs that differ from the EG information can only cause confusion amongst members.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

EG app also has, like comp cards the ability to have an affect on a players HC. If clubs are willing to accept the EG app IMO the various proprietary apps should also be accepted. Whether we like it or not the use of proprietary apps will be the way forward.

I agree but until the ISV's add acceptable versions of attestation and proximity it won't happen. Both are big changes and certainly the proposed solution for attestation in HDID looks unworkable.

Doesn't help my current problem.

 

[wjemather]

Rightly or wrongly, I am DQing cards with one signature. Wales went to COVID level zero today. Absolutely no excuse for not having written verification now. As for apps taking over from cards, that would be a black day indeed. A quick trawl through these pages reveals the problems that beset casual rounds being entered via app alone. I know it wont suit all M&H people, but I have informed members that, to pre-register, they contact me by email, text, whatsapp or phone before they play and send me a picture of the card when they finish. Getting about 15 a week, which is completely managable. We do have 3 comps a week though.

It's probably worth noting that a lack of marker's signature is not a DQ if it's out of the players control.

 

[Old Skier]

I agree but until the ISV's add acceptable versions of attestation and proximity it won't happen. Both are big changes and certainly the proposed solution for attestation in HDID looks unworkable.

Doesn't help my current problem.

What really is an acceptable version of attestation.

Playing Devils Advocate- Many clubs seem to be quite happy with a bunch of mates going out together in comps and marking each others cards. There are many posts on the forum that think this is wrong.

In the end, golf is about trust, if we cannot accept trusting our members its time to rethink things like apps and PSI.

 

[IanMcC]

Are you DQing for competition purposes or not processing handicaps for those cards? What instructions or guidance has the WGU given?

For the comp only. Their handicap record is being updated.
WGU have given no update. None required. Rule 3.3b is pretty clear.

On Edit

Wales Golf did issue this on 17th July

The following changes will be made from Saturday 17th July:

• Scoring in Stroke Play (Rule 3.3b) – the provisions of Rule 3.3b apply where the player’s score is kept on his or her scorecard by a marker. Certification of the scorecard by the marker and by the player should occur, as per the guidelines of Rule 3.3b(2).

 

[IanMcC]

It's probably worth noting that a lack of marker's signature is not a DQ if it's out of the players control.

Once the marker left the club with the players scorecard, and of course I did not DQ either of them. Cant think of any other instance where the marker would not certify the card.

 

[wjemather]

What really is an acceptable version of attestation.

Playing Devils Advocate- Many clubs seem to be quite happy with a bunch of mates going out together in comps and marking each others cards. There are many posts on the forum that think this is wrong.

In the end, golf is about trust, if we cannot accept trusting our members its time to rethink things like apps and PSI.

Again, most (if not all) ISV apps do not currently have any attestation at all. It's unlikely that PSIs ever will (I don't really see how it could work without tying up the PSI for excessive lengths of time as each group check and certify their scores?).

Apps are also incredibly cumbersome (and unreliable due to dependency on technology, network coverage, battery life, etc.) when compared to a simple scorecard and pencil. These are the things that really hold back any move away from physical cards.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

What really is an acceptable version of attestation.

Playing Devils Advocate- Many clubs seem to be quite happy with a bunch of mates going out together in comps and marking each others cards. There are many posts on the forum that think this is wrong.

In the end, golf is about trust, if we cannot accept trusting our members its time to rethink things like apps and PSI.

Trust and personal integrity are fundamental parts of our game and need to be promoted and protected in my opinion. This is also true of our handicapping system which I think is the USP of our game allowing people of all ages, abilities and type to play together on a level playing field.

With this comes a responsibility so attestation for me is about playing with others - friends or not - and agreeing a score that is accurate and verified before it's used in competition or handicap calculations. In the past this was a physical scorecard with 2 signatures but as we move toward an on-line game the equivalent of confirming the score entered is what is agreed with your peers in still relevant.

I like the MyEnglandGolf solution of a message / confirmation to the marker. I don't like the proposed V1 solution of entering both player and marker scores into the system before verifying.

 

[Old Skier]

Trust and personal integrity are fundamental parts of our game and need to be promoted and protected in my opinion. This is also true of our handicapping system which I think is the USP of our game allowing people of all ages, abilities and type to play together on a level playing field.

With this comes a responsibility so attestation for me is about playing with others - friends or not - and agreeing a score that is accurate and verified before it's used in competition or handicap calculations. In the past this was a physical scorecard with 2 signatures but as we move toward an on-line game the equivalent of confirming the score entered is what is agreed with your peers in still relevant.

I like the MyEnglandGolf solution of a message / confirmation to the marker. I don't like the proposed V1 solution of entering both player and marker scores into the system before verifying.

If the same method of verification was adopted by the ISVs as is used by EG would you accept moving towards a “no scorecard” requirement for those able to use the technology?

 

[Old Skier]

Again, most (if not all) ISV apps do not currently have any attestation at all. It's unlikely that PSIs ever will (I don't really see how it could work without tying up the PSI for excessive lengths of time as each group check and certify their scores?).

Im not sure what you mean by this as the HDID app has the same attestation apart from the markers signature as a card. A markers name is easily added and a players signature.

 

[Swango1980]

Im not sure what you mean by this as the HDID app has the same attestation apart from the markers signature as a card. A markers name is easily added and a players signature.

On HDID the marker never sees the score the player entered on the app. They won't even know the player has declared them a marker. A player could pick any random player at club as their marker, and unless the club actually checks, no one would be any type wiser.

On EG the marker gets a notification, they then see what the player has entered and then must physically verify that score (as far as I remember, not used it a lot)

 

[rulefan]

For the comp only. Their handicap record is being updated.
WGU have given no update. None required. Rule 3.3b is pretty clear.

Thanks. I hadn't noticed the WGU released the CONGU update on July 17th Rule 3.3b (scoring in Stroke Play) is reinstated fully and a return to a ‘normal’ method of attestation must be used for physical scorecards. Any use of electronic scorecards must fully implement the requirements of this rule.

 

[wjemather]

Im not sure what you mean by this as the HDID app has the same attestation apart from the markers signature as a card. A markers name is easily added and a players signature.

Adding a markers name does not achieve certification (attestation) by a marker as it is all done by the player. HDID has certification by player only, not by marker.

(Current) HDID functionality is effectively the same as the player marking their own scorecard, signing as the player and printing their markers name - all of this can happen without the marker ever having seen the scorecard.

 

[Old Skier]

(Current) HDID functionality is effectively the same as the player marking their own scorecard, signing as the player and printing their markers name - all of this can happen without the marker ever having seen the scorecard.

A bit like the method many clubs used in the past year.