WHS Handicap Index - Finally Revealed

[Swango1980]

We haven't had any updates to scores on the EG Platform for a couple of weeks despite them being processed on Club V1.

There must be a synchronisation before they start giving members access.

It is worrying me. Do I need to enter the scores myself as handicap secretary. Will they suddenly just appear? Is it England Golf's problem? Is it Club V1? Could this not have been resolved months and months ago, so a few weeks before launch we pretty much have a well running system, one in which club officials and regular golfers have had a chance to become familiar with, so that when 2nd November comes everybody is fully ready to use it without any confusion and last minute handicap adjustments to account for silly initial Handicap Indexes. Another example of this concern:

We have one member who has submitted plenty of scores, CONGU handicap = 28.6. WHS Index = 25.5. Course Handicap (Yellows = 29, Whites = 30). So, no real concerns there.

A new member, just got his handicap. CONGU handicap = 28.0, WHS Index = 28.0 (as it hasn't used his 3 submitted cards, just matched his CONGU handicap). Course Handicap (Yellows = 32, Whites = 33)

So, the new member has a lower handicap than the guy who has been a member for years currently, but as soon as WHS Index comes into play, he gets 3 extra shots compared to the longer member. Clearly, as handicap secretary, I will have to do something about this, because I can just imagine the frustration, and perhaps fury of golfers playing in the winter league, when the new guy suddenly gets 4 extra shots compared to what he gets today, whilst all the regular members get no such benefit.

I wonder how many clubs are prepared for this, and realise that they really need to adjust the Index values of any new member at the very least. I wonder who is responsible as to why their 1st 3 cards for handicap are not included in the WHS platform? Is it England Golf, or the ISVs? Have England Golf or the ISV's issued any guidance or warnings to clubs, to focus the mind of handicap secs as to where adjustments are most likely required?

 

[rulefan]

We haven't had any updates to scores on the EG Platform for a couple of weeks despite them being processed on Club V1.

There must be a synchronisation before they start giving members access.

Email from EG

The Platform only contains scores up to 5th October and is not currently being updated, we will be doing a final transition on 1st November ahead of WHS Launch.

 

[rulefan]

Apologies, but have you seen the WHS Platform yet??? As others have said, there is no evidence as all yet that CSS has been used. I will give you an example.

We had a competition on 29/8/20 in which the CSS was 71 (SSS=69). The winner shot gross 88 (no nett double bogey adjustments required). The Slope of the Course is 133

So, if CSS was used, his Score differential would be = (88-71) x 113/133 = 14.4

If Course Rating was used (which is 69.4), his Score differential would be = (88-69.4) x 113/133 = 15.8

The WHS Platform clearly shows his "Score Diff" for that round as 15.8, which means that CSS has not been used at all.

What is showing on the WHS as his HI for the round immediately before that round?
What is showing on the CDH as his Handicap for the round immediately before that round?

 

[Swango1980]

What is showing on the WHS as his HI for the round immediately before that round?
What is showing on the CDH as his Handicap for the round immediately before that round?

Firstly, I'm not sure how to get a Playing History from the CDH Database. I can find the player, but all it gives me is his name, CDH, Golf Club, Handicap and when it was last updated. No Scoring History.

On Club V1, after player shot a gross 88 and CSS was 71 (SSS=69), and with a handicap of 18 at the time, his Nett Deff is shown as -1. Handicap went from 17.9 to 17.6

On WHS Platform, his Index before round was 15.8, and after was 15.3 (although this is irrelevant to the issue of CSS being used or not)

The Score Differential on the WHS Platform is clearly based on a calculation using the Course Rating, as per previous post. I have added up his 8 best Score Differentials on the Platform, divided by 8, and I get his Handicap Index, that ties up with his Index on the Platform. So, all the numbers exactly match up if Course Rating is used. There is no other adjustment to account for the fact CSS may have been different to SSS

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Email from EG

The Platform only contains scores up to 5th October and is not currently being updated, we will be doing a final transition on 1st November ahead of WHS Launch.

OK I guess but if EG are not clear when they send their email out linking to the site it's going to be confusing

 

[louise_a]

As I posted in another thread

EG. It uses the Gross Differential (so uses the CSS).

I now have access to our indexes, I have been working mine out using handicap plus nett differential and I was expecting around 10.0 I have got 11.5, so I am pretty sure CSS was not taken into account

 

[rulefan]

I now have access to our indexes, I have been working mine out using handicap plus nett differential and I was expecting around 10.0 I have got 11.5, so I am pretty sure CSS was not taken into account

Which line on the display did you take HI from?

 

[PJ87]

They have until 10th Nov to sort out for the 18 hole comp otherwise I'll wait

Way to over complicate a nice simple game

 

[Swango1980]

Which line on the display did you take HI from?

As I said on another post, I can assure you CSS is NOT being used on the WHS Platform. Perhaps that will ge updated, perhaps not. I have no idea what is final and what is not

 

[Swango1980]

Email from EG

The Platform only contains scores up to 5th October and is not currently being updated, we will be doing a final transition on 1st November ahead of WHS Launch.

So, that means we do not need to add in the missing scores from the last week?

What about missing scores from golfers who recently handed 3 cards in for handicap?

 

[rulefan]

As I said on another post, I can assure you CSS is NOT being used on the WHS Platform. Perhaps that will ge updated, perhaps not. I have no idea what is final and what is not

Can you provide a screen shot (or extract) of a few consecutive rows of scores where the CSS is not = to SSS/CR?

 

[louise_a]

Which line on the display did you take HI from?

I have requested my handicap certificate and in bold letters it says
WHS® Handicap Index: 11.5

 

[rosecott]

How do you mean (if referred to me)?

My comments were related to what was present on WHS Portal today (and still is after checking now). I think it is going to be vital for handicap secretaries to check new member handicaps. We have a few in our winter league. One chap has a Congu Handicap of 28.0 (his initial handicap was 30, but has since entered 1 score, and it went to 28.0). Therefore, his Index is 28.0. Therefore, come 2nd November, his Course Handicap off yellows will be 32, whereas most other golfers have an Index lower than their CONGU handicap, but course handicap is about the same. It also seems that scores entered in the last week or 2 are missing from the WHS portal, but I don't want to enter them manually inc ase they magically appear and are then duplicated.

Questions:

1. The ladies competition that happened last week is not included in any of the players WHS scoring history (it was a qualifier), nor any recent supplementary cards. Do we think these will appear at any point?
2. If we have qualifiers between now and November, will they appear on WHS Portal handicap calculations?
3. If golfers hand in supplementary cards in next few weeks, should these be entered on ISV (Club V! in my case) as normal, or directly in WHS Portal?
4. After 2nd November, can we enter supplementary cards in Club V1, or must these be done in WHS Portal (i.e. is Club V1 only for comps only)?

Have you not lost sight of the fact that these are only meant to be indicative? I didn't expect them to be bang up to date with yesterday's competitions included. It doesn't go live until 2nd November.

 

[Swango1980]

Can you provide a screen shot (or extract) of a few consecutive rows of scores where the CSS is not = to SSS/CR?

Hopefully the file is attached. The round I refer to was on 29/08/20, where CSS = SSS+2

 

[Swango1980]

Have you not lost sight of the fact that these are only meant to be indicative? I didn't expect them to be bang up to date with yesterday's competitions included. It doesn't go live until 2nd November.

I asked England Golf directly about the missing scores from new members (when their Index was shown as Pending). The responded directly saying I either need to contact the ISV to return the missing scores, add them myself or get the players to submit 3 further cards.

A day later, these players suddenly had a handicap. The scores were still not present, but their handicap Index was simply set as their CONGU handicap (which will generally be too high, at my club anyway)

So, should we just take a look, and ignore the numbers in it? Did England Golf tell us what other updates they will make before 2nd November. Other handicap secretaries have already stated on here they are now desperately manually entering missing scores, before all golfers get to see it on Monday. However, will these missing scores simply return?

As a handicap secretary, I have no idea what the heck I am meant to be doing with this data, or should I just sit back and leave it be? As it stands, new golfers are suddenly going to get a load of extra shots come 2nd november (especially high handicappers) compared to regulars, and it will be noticeable in our Winter Leagues. I was hoping things could be refined before club golfers get to see it

 

[Mozza14]

Hopefully the file is attached. The round I refer to was on 29/08/20, where CSS = SSS+2

I have access to my WHS record and a few others. CSS has not been used in any of the calculations.

For my record, if CSS had been used the Handicap Index would have been 0.2 lower.

The adjusted gross score and Course Rating used.

 

[rulefan]

Hopefully the file is attached. The round I refer to was on 29/08/20, where CSS = SSS+2

Thanks
What is showing on CDH for the Gross, stableford adj, SSS and CSS?
Did you use the HI from 15/08/20?

 

[Swango1980]

Thanks
What is showing on CDH for the Gross, stableford adj, SSS and CSS?
Did you use the HI from 15/08/20?

Are we on the same hymn sheet, I assume we are talking about whether CSS has been taken into account in the initial Index calculations? My screenshot shows it has not.

The Gross was 88, gross adjusted was 88, CSS 71, SSS 69 (as I have said)

I'd have thought, had the WHS taken into account CSS, it would have set PCC to +2. It hasn't, it is simply using the CR of 69.4.

 

[nickjdavis]

Hold fire Nick. Despite WHS replying yesterday saying that either the ISV guys need to sort this, or club committees need to manually put these scores in, I have just checked today and the new golfers whose handicap was shown as Pending, now have a handicap.

p

Yep...all of our pendings have changed so they now have a handicap.

It appears that in many cases a player has been given an index the same as his CONGU handicap.

In some cases a player who only has two scores has an index based on the best score minus 2...or sometimes minus 1. There is no logic to how some of the indexes have been allocated.

Also....we have noticed that if you try to enter a score of more than double bogey on hole (assuming the player does not get a shot) the system generates an error message when you try to submit the score and prevents you from doing so. It seems that it wants you to enter the "nett double" bogey score. This is daft...it should allow you to enter the gross score and work out any adjustments for itself.

 

[Swango1980]

Yep...all of our pendings have changed so they now have a handicap.

It appears that in many cases a player has been given an index the same as his CONGU handicap.

In some cases a player who only has two scores has an index based on the best score minus 2...or sometimes minus 1. There is no logic to how some of the indexes have been allocated.

Also....we have noticed that if you try to enter a score of more than double bogey on hole (assuming the player does not get a shot) the system generates an error message when you try to submit the score and prevents you from doing so. It seems that it wants you to enter the "nett double" bogey score. This is daft...it should allow you to enter the gross score and work out any adjustments for itself.

I'm scared to go near it, as I have no idea how broke it is, or how finished it is. Could spend hours on it, then suddenly it all changes again?

Simply giving new golfers an Index equal to Congu handicap is worrying, given virtually all golfers who have submitted lots of scores have a handicap index lower than Congu. It means we have ridiculous situations where an experienced golfer with Congu of 28.6 gets a course handicap of 29 off yellows, whereas a new golfer with Congu 28 gets a course handicap of 32. These will stick out like sore thumbs in our winter league. I could try and change them, but someone says these are only indicative and may well change.