WHS doesn't work

[wjemather]

WHS feels a little like that. I never remember anybody requesting different tees could be chosen in a single competition, based on what player wants. WHS allows it, and now some users (competition Committees) are implementing it frequently simply because the option exists.

WHS may have made things simpler and fairer, but
mixed tee (mostly in the form of mixed gender) competitions predate WHS by more than a century.

 

[clubchamp98]

The problem is not specific to WHS. Handicap manipulation has been an issue for ages! Remember the Trilby Tour, and other valuable prize comp, issues!
EG's GP restriction for elite events is another example of simple and sensible action.

GP imo are a big problem.
since WHS and the aps it’s got worse.

 

[Swango1980]

WHS may have made things simpler and fairer, but
mixed tee (mostly in the form of mixed gender) competitions predate WHS by more than a century.

I guess it is just a coincidence that the implementation of WHS and the issue Tashyboy is describing have come about at the same time?

I never blamed WHS of course, simply described the fact that the implementation of WHS and the software used alongside it have given more flexibility to users. Thus, some clubs are now running mixed tee competitions regularly, when they didn't before. The only time I recognised it before, personally, was when men and women could compete in the same competition. That was necessary, as men and women were not rated on the same sets of tees.

 

[Alan Clifford]

Not a fan of comps being off different tees unless it’s mixed


The ratings and slope on a lot of courses Imo don’t always reflect the difference between the tees

Same tee for all male competitors playing within the same competition imo

But you are OK with the ladies' ratings doing the correct reflection? And why allow a different tee for ladies but not for old people. That seems to me to be totally illogical.

 

[Swango1980]

But you are OK with the ladies' ratings doing the correct reflection? And why allow a different tee for ladies but not for old people. That seems to me to be totally illogical.

Many / most clubs only have their red tees rated for females, and their other tees rated for men. So, if you want to run a competition with both males and females, it isn't a question of allowing multi-tees. There is simply no other choice.

On a separate note, I'm a fan of having all tees rated for both men and women. Then for mens competitions (and probably more relevant to Seniors sections), there would be the option to having some competitions off red tees for men. And ladies would have the option to run some competitions off further tees.

 

[clubchamp98]

Had a good chat with a few of our ladies in the club today.
Every single one said they didn’t want to play the course any longer than the reds.
They feel the red tees are to long for some of the older ladies as it is.

The main concern is all the men who want a shorter course than the yellows would cut up the red tees if they had the choice in comps or casual play.

I can only think of two girls who play the whites both county players .
Had the pleasure to play with one recently with her dad really nice girl and lovely golfer but she hit it about 250 yds off the tee.
But she said” the whites is much better for her game”
but I did notice her short game and putting were fantastic.

 

[Swango1980]

Had a good chat with a few of our ladies in the club today.
Every single one said they didn’t want to play the course any longer than the reds.
They feel the red tees are to long for some of the older ladies as it is.

The main concern is all the men who want a shorter course than the yellows would cut up the red tees if they had the choice in comps or casual play.

I can only think of two girls who play the whites both county players .
Had the pleasure to play with one recently with her dad really nice girl and lovely golfer but she hit it about 250 yds off the tee.
But she said” the whites is much better for her game”
but I did notice her short game and putting were fantastic.

What, they'd cut up the red tees more than they would the yellows?

I'd have thought most clubs have more male members than females, and thus the tees heaviest used, by far, would be the yellows (or equivalent if clubs use different colours)? If men could play off the reds, I'd suspect most would still play off yellows. So, I could only see there being a bit more balanced usage, with less teeing off yellows, and more teeing off reds but still less so than currently tee off yellows?

 

[wjemather]

What, they'd cut up the red tees more than they would the yellows?

I'd have thought most clubs have more male members than females, and thus the tees heaviest used, by far, would be the yellows (or equivalent if clubs use different colours)? If men could play off the reds, I'd suspect most would still play off yellows. So, I could only see there being a bit more balanced usage, with less teeing off yellows, and more teeing off reds but still less so than currently tee off yellows?

Heavy use (e.g. yellow) teeing areas are typically much larger than those for the forward (e.g. red) tees and so are better able to cope as the tees of the day can be moved around much more. Transferring a significant amount of traffic to a smaller area without that scope could easily cause problems.

 

[clubchamp98]

What, they'd cut up the red tees more than they would the yellows?

I'd have thought most clubs have more male members than females, and thus the tees heaviest used, by far, would be the yellows (or equivalent if clubs use different colours)? If men could play off the reds, I'd suspect most would still play off yellows. So, I could only see there being a bit more balanced usage, with less teeing off yellows, and more teeing off reds but still less so than currently tee off yellows?

Yes I agree but the ladies don’t see it like that.
They just see more traffic on the reds.

 

[clubchamp98]

Heavy use (e.g. yellow) teeing areas are typically much larger than those for the forward (e.g. red) tees and so are better able to cope as the tees of the day can be moved around much more. Transferring a significant amount of traffic to a smaller area without that scope could easily cause problems.

Yes that is exactly their thinking as no ladies go to the yellows.!

 

[D-S]

The red teeing grounds tend to be a lot smaller and they are normally not very worn at all - Women do not tend to take anywhere near the amount or size of divots that men do.

 

[Neilds]

We are running this year a low handicap (under 12 and under 15) mixed singles knockout - so far no unnatural or strange results.

What is an unnatural or strange result? Are you saying the lower handicaps should always win and never have an off day?

 

[D-S]

What is an unnatural or strange result? Are you saying the lower handicaps should always win and never have an off day?

No, just that as it is a mixed gender singles knockout not all the women have won their matches playing against men nor have all the men won their matches playing against women.

 

[Backsticks]

But you are OK with the ladies' ratings doing the correct reflection? And why allow a different tee for ladies but not for old people. That seems to me to be totally illogical.

Which we could extend to different tees for every handicap. 60 tee markers on each hole. Or according to each individuals driver swing speed ? That would be about 60 tee markers per hole too.

 

[NearHull]

Could the more knowledgeable expand a bit on the incoming CR - Par please?

 

[Ians_sporting_bro]

GP imo are a big problem.
since WHS and the aps it’s got worse.

That finally seems confirmation that it's not a problem caused by WHS! Though they were called Supplementary Scores in the UHS regime!

 

[Ians_sporting_bro]

Could the more knowledgeable expand a bit on the incoming CR - Par please?

Like Dean Knutz, the original creator of the Slope system from which WHS was derived, I'm not a fan. While CR is based on a semi-rigorous process, the ability to somewhat randomly change the Par of hole(s) rather grates. This document might help, though I'm not entirely convinced. https://www.golferscard.ae/userfiles/file/Documents/EGF_WHS_Simplified_Summary_of_Changes_160320 .pdf

 

[Swango1980]

Like Dean Knutz, the original creator of the Slope system from which WHS was derived, I'm not a fan. While CR is based on a semi-rigorous process, the ability to somewhat randomly change the Par of hole(s) rather grates. This document might help, though I'm not entirely convinced. https://www.golferscard.ae/userfiles/file/Documents/EGF_WHS_Simplified_Summary_of_Changes_160320 .pdf

Although, even if Par was random, it would make no difference to the effectiveness of handicaps, as everyone would still be the same relative to one another. There is no disadvantage to using CR-Par. The advantage is that golfers know how where they stand when comparing their performance to par, which the vast majority do.

The only real impact this "random" par can have on a players handicap is the nett double bogey adjustment. And that is true regardless of whether CR-Par is used or not.

 

[Ians_sporting_bro]

Although, even if Par was random, it would make no difference to the effectiveness of handicaps, as everyone would still be the same relative to one another. There is no disadvantage to using CR-Par. The advantage is that golfers know how where they stand when comparing their performance to par, which the vast majority do.

Intra club perhaps, but not if comparing members of one club with another - where the 'X club handicaps travel well' concept was all too prevalent under UHS.

 

[NearHull]

Like Dean Knutz, the original creator of the Slope system from which WHS was derived, I'm not a fan. While CR is based on a semi-rigorous process, the ability to somewhat randomly change the Par of hole(s) rather grates. This document might help, though I'm not entirely convinced. https://www.golferscard.ae/userfiles/file/Documents/EGF_WHS_Simplified_Summary_of_Changes_160320 .pdf

Well , I read the CR-Par paragraphs a couple of times. If I’ve understood it correctly, the ‘baseline’ for a CH will be impacted by this change. ( assuming that a CR is different to the Par for a course). If that is correct, then do we change all those printed boards? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick, and the changes will be implemented in the Score Records by a change of the algorithm that determines Score Differential?