WHS doesn't work

[D-S]

Well , I read the CR-Par paragraphs a couple of times. If I’ve understood it correctly, the ‘baseline’ for a CH will be impacted by this change. ( assuming that a CR is different to the Par for a course). If that is correct, then do we change all those printed boards? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

Yes you do, although there should be funding from governing bodies to help - it is just the plastic laminate.

 

[Swango1980]

Intra club perhaps, but not if comparing members of one club with another - where the 'X club handicaps travel well' concept was all too prevalent under UHS.

Playing against members at other clubs also makes no difference. Everybody's index is calculated in exactly the same way whether CR-Par is used or not. The relative differences remain the same.

It doesn't matter whether you play a different course at same club (different tees), or at different clubs.

 

[Ians_sporting_bro]

Yes you do, although there should be funding from governing bodies to help - it is just the plastic laminate.

All those I can remember seeing are A4 paper sheets, either on noticeboards or enclosed within weatherproof frames near the 1st tee! I can't imagine the need, nor justifiction, for 'funding from governing to help' being required!

 

[Ians_sporting_bro]

Playing against members at other clubs also makes no difference. Everybody's index is calculated in exactly the same way whether CR-Par is used or not. The relative differences remain the same.

It doesn't matter whether you play a different course at same club (different tees), or at different clubs.

We'll have to agree to differ then. And you don't seem to have considered the 'both players at a course where neither is a member' case. Also, as I stated, Par is a fairly random attribute that could be changed with no reference to course raters!

 

[NearHull]

Yes you do, although there should be funding from governing bodies to help - it is just the plastic laminate.

I edited my reply whilst you were writing, my apologies. The thought occurred to me that it’s possible to leave the notices as they are ( laminated or not ) and make the changes within the algorithm to determine the Score Differential.

 

[Swango1980]

We'll have to agree to differ then. And you don't seem to have considered the 'both players at a course where neither is a member' case. Also, as I stated, Par is a fairly random attribute that could be changed with no reference to course raters!

I have, and the rest of the world have as well, who already use CR-Par.

Let us say Players A and B have 0 and 10 indexes respectively. I'll keep slope at 113 in all cases to keep things simple, and Par at all courses 72. Player A plays at a course with CR 69, B CR 75

Currently, Player's A and B have Course Handicaps of 0 and 10 at both their courses. Difference of 10 between them.

If CR-Par was used, Player A would have a CH of -3 at his course, and if B played there, his CH would be 7. Difference of 10 between both.

If CR-Par was used, Player B would have a CH of 13 at his course, and if A played there, his CH would be 3. Difference of 10 between both.

And, if both players went and played another course, whatever the CR and Slope still 113, the difference would still be 10.

 

[Ians_sporting_bro]

I have, and the rest of the world have as well, who already use CR-Par.

Let us say Players A and B have 0 and 10 indexes respectively. I'll keep slope at 113 in all cases to keep things simple, and Par at all courses 72. Player A plays at a course with CR 69, B CR 75

Currently, Player's A and B have Course Handicaps of 0 and 10 at both their courses. Difference of 10 between them.

If CR-Par was used, Player A would have a CH of -3 at his course, and if B played there, his CH would be 7. Difference of 10 between both.

If CR-Par was used, Player B would have a CH of 13 at his course, and if A played there, his CH would be 3. Difference of 10 between both.

And, if both players went and played another course, whatever the CR and Slope still 113, the difference would still be 10.

You don't seem to have understood the gist of my earlier posts! So I'm out! As an exiting challenge....Consider the effect of B's course (only) changing the Par of one hole!

 

[Tractor Wheal]

That seems a way-over-the-top way to mcro-manage comps and is unrelated to the primary focus of my post, which was about the timing of WHS as opposed to that of ultra-high handicaps! KISS methods, such as Divisions and Handicap Limits, seem far simpler and better! If there are really issues with players managing their index, there are, imo, sufficient existing facilities to identify and control offenders!

1. You also mentioned "inept committee" in #2251. I would point out in England that we were advised to have a minimum of 3 on the Handicap Committee of which a minimum of 2 are members, across 1800 clubs just in England, some of which clubs are member only, thus the whole committee will be members. Thats a lot of VOLUNTEERS you might be disparaging toward. The WHS is (perhaps over) complex and everyone is doing their best.

2. You think only committees should be dealing with these manipulators. I only mentioned a temporary lack of form. I have zero proof nor do I believe, that 3 of our 4 Board winners this year are manipulating. Although those 3 have all had a Playing Handicap increase of at least 2 in a short period of time. Maybe the WHS formulae need a tweak.

3. To assist point 2, perhaps you or anyone else can post their club policy on Peer Review (redact if necessary). Other than idle clubhouse chatter, nobody can be bothered to call people out - some just stop playing in competitions which is surely defeating the purpose of any handicap system.

PS. Not relevant to the rest of my post but CR-par does nothing other than cause committee's more work. It certainly doesn't address any local issues with the WHS.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Why did we not use (Standard Scratch - Par) under the previous system to adjust everyone's handicap so that players could judge their performance against par?

Answer: Because it was not necessary. Players had learned and accepted the significance of Standard Scratch.

CR-Par is not necessary under this new system.
Many have not yet fully learned the significance of, Course Rating, Slope Rating, Score Differential and the part they play in the new system.
Introducing CR-Par will prolong the time it will take to learn and accept the new system.

Most of those desiring CR-Par are seeking a handicap that resembles their old handicap where you "get shots on a course".
But no one "gets shots on a course" anymore. You merely return a gross score, not a nett score like you did in the previous system.

The only time "you get shots" is when playing with and against others.

Moving everyone's handicap up a bit, or down a bit, by the same amount achieves nothing.

CR-Par is not necessary.

 

[Ians_sporting_bro]

1. You also mentioned "inept committee" in #2251. I would point out in England that we were advised to have a minimum of 3 on the Handicap Committee of which a minimum of 2 are members, across 1800 clubs just in England, some of which clubs are member only, thus the whole committee will be members. Thats a lot of VOLUNTEERS you might be disparaging toward. The WHS is (perhaps over) complex and everyone is doing their best.

2. You think only committees should be dealing with these manipulators. I only mentioned a temporary lack of form. I have zero proof nor do I believe, that 3 of our 4 Board winners this year are manipulating. Although those 3 have all had a Playing Handicap increase of at least 2 in a short period of time. Maybe the WHS formulae need a tweak.

3. To assist point 2, perhaps you or anyone else can post their club policy on Peer Review (redact if necessary). Other than idle clubhouse chatter, nobody can be bothered to call people out - some just stop playing in competitions which is surely defeating the purpose of any handicap system.

PS. Not relevant to the rest of my post but CR-par does nothing other than cause committee's more work. It certainly doesn't address any local issues with the WHS.

1. I have sympathy, but that doesn't excuse their ineptitude!
2 Who else would you suggest! An active Handicap Sec would be able to explain any (in)action. You should perhaps bring your concerns to the attention of the HCp Sec, initialy, or the committee - in writing if not satisfied, so it can't be ignored!
3. It requires an active, sensitive and approachable Handicap Sec. I've seen example of both great and relatively poor ones!

 

[D-S]

Why did we not use (Standard Scratch - Par) under the previous system to adjust everyone's handicap so that players could judge their performance against par?

Answer: Because it was not necessary. Players had learned and accepted the significance of Standard Scratch.

CR-Par is not necessary under this new system.
Many have not yet fully learned the significance of, Course Rating, Slope Rating, Score Differential and the part they play in the new system.
Introducing CR-Par will prolong the time it will take to learn and accept the new system.

Most of those desiring CR-Par are seeking a handicap that resembles their old handicap where you "get shots on a course".
But no one "gets shots on a course" anymore. You merely return a gross score, not a nett score like you did in the previous system.

The only time "you get shots" is when playing with and against others.

Moving everyone's handicap up a bit, or down a bit, by the same amount achieves nothing.

CR-Par is not necessary.

All the other handicapping authorities in the world since the introduction of WHS and now, after due consideration apparently, CONGU as well beg to differ.

 

[rulefan]

All the other handicapping authorities in the world since the introduction of WHS and now, after due consideration apparently, CONGU as well beg to differ.

I still haven't seen a positive reason for (CR-Par)

 

[D-S]

I still haven't seen a positive reason for (CR-Par)

Yet CONGU obviously have and the rest of the world obviously did.

 

[Ians_sporting_bro]

I still haven't seen a positive reason for (CR-Par)

Nor have I! The only obvious reason I can see is to be consistent with other countries.

 

[Swango1980]

You don't seem to have understood the gist of my earlier posts! So I'm out! As an exiting challenge....Consider the effect of B's course (only) changing the Par of one hole!

Yes, I will.

They change the Par of 1 hole by 1 shot. Both their course handicaps change by 1 shot. Their course handicaps are still the same relative distance apart.

 

[wjemather]

You don't seem to have understood the gist of my earlier posts! So I'm out! As an exiting challenge....Consider the effect of B's course (only) changing the Par of one hole!

Score Differentials would remain the same except for where nett double bogey comes into effect on that hole. However, the difference to Handicap Indexes would be negligible because of how infrequently such an occurrence would be in a counting score. Obviously, Course Handicaps would change for everyone but the relative difference between players Course Handicaps would remain the same.

What do you think would happen?

 

[Steve Wilkes]

I still haven't seen a positive reason for (CR-Par)

The biggest positive is the 36 points becomes the 'playing to handicap'
And should put an end to the nobody beat 34 points and PCC was still 0, when playing to 34 could be playing better than handicap

 

[Alan Clifford]

Which we could extend to different tees for every handicap. 60 tee markers on each hole. Or according to each individuals driver swing speed ? That would be about 60 tee markers per hole too.

Yes, that's the logical conclusion of having seperate tees for two different subsets of humans. As you have identified, just having different tees for the men and women subsets is sub-optimal. Best just to have one set of ratings for each tee and let the handicap system do what a handicap system does

 

[Ians_sporting_bro]

Score Differentials would remain the same except for where nett double bogey comes into effect on that hole. However, the difference to Handicap Indexes would be negligible because of how infrequently such an occurrence would be in a counting score. Obviously, Course Handicaps would change for everyone but the relative difference between players Course Handicaps would remain the same.

What do you think would happen?

Eventually (after between 8 and 20 entries),expectation woud be that HI would change by the amount of the change in Par. There might be earlier changes , but that's unpredictable.
And while it might not matter intra-club, it would have an effect inter-club or across the rest of WHS!

 

[Swango1980]

Eventually (after between 8 and 20 entries), HI change would be affected by the change in Par. And while it might not matter intra-club, it would have an effect inter-club or across the rest of WHS!

No it wouldn't. The HI is the average of the best 8 score differentials. Score differential is (Adjusted Gross Score - CR) x 113/Slope.

Par does not figure in the calculation for HI, nor would it when CR-Par is included in conversion to Course Handicap