WHS doesn't work

[wjemather]

Eventually (after between 8 and 20 entries), HI change would be affected by the change in Par. And while it might not matter intra-club, it would have an effect inter-club or across the rest of WHS!

No it wouldn't. The calculations do not involve par, irrespective of whether CR-Par is included in the Course Handicap calculation.

Score Differential = (113 / Slope) x (Adjusted gross - Course Rating - PCC)

Handicap Index = Average (best Score Differentials)

 

[Ians_sporting_bro]

No it wouldn't. The calculations do not involve par, irrespective of whether CR-Par is included in the Course Handicap calculation.

Score Differential = (113 / Slope) x (Adjusted gross - Course Rating - PCC)

Handicap Index = Average (best Score Differentials)

So please explain what the point of including the CR-Par in CH is. I really don't know why it's included, as CR seems to provide everything that's needed!

 

[wjemather]

So please explain what the point of including the CR-Par in CH is. I really don't know why it's included, as CR seems to provide everything that's needed!

Most people relate to par rather than Course Rating, and regard 36 points (or nett par) as playing to handicap even though is commonly isn't.

Including CR-Par brings the play-to-handicap score inline with general perception, i.e. it's simply 36 points (or nett par) at every course. It also greatly simplifies mixed tee adjustments.

 

[Ians_sporting_bro]

Most people relate to par rather than Course Rating, and regard 36 points (or nett par) as playing to handicap even though is commonly isn't.

Including CR-Par brings the play-to-handicap score inline with general perception, i.e. it's simply 36 points (or nett par) at every course. It also greatly simplifies mixed tee adjustments.

So a copout to luddites and dummies! And it only works for Stableford scoring. I'm even more surprised that US have implemented it, as S'ford is, apparently, rarely used over there - at least far less often than here.
FWIW, the group I play with have considered 36 - (CR-Par) playing to H'cap, but that's probably becuse we are a group of accountants and IT folk!
Many thanks for the explanation. I take my criticism of it back - at least in the main.

 

[Voyager EMH]

The biggest positive is the 36 points becomes the 'playing to handicap'
And should put an end to the nobody beat 34 points and PCC was still 0, when playing to 34 could be playing better than handicap

This is not true.

Stableford points are scored according to Playing Handicap not Course Handicap.

CH = 52 then PH = 49. etc

Some are using a PH that is the same as CH and some are using a PH that is 1, 2 or 3 shots lower than CH.

To judge 36 points as "playing to handicap" you would need to make another adjustment by adding 0, 1, 2 or 3 points to your stableford score.

Lets call that process SPATCH.
Stableford Points Adjusted To Course Handicap.

Much better would be not to do this.
Your golf score is your gross score not your stableford points.
Judging how you "played to handicap" by comparing Score Differential to Handicap Index would be much better.

 

[Voyager EMH]

All the other handicapping authorities in the world since the introduction of WHS and now, after due consideration apparently, CONGU as well beg to differ.

I know.

And after due consideration, I differ in my view from their view.
This does not make me "wrong".

I have formed a different view.
I will continue to hold this view and I will always be able to explain why I hold this view.

If it irritates other people that I hold this view, then they will have to be irritated.
I believe I have a right to hold a different view from a majority.
And the majority have a right to hold their view.

 

[Swango1980]

This is not true.

Stableford points are scored according to Playing Handicap not Course Handicap.

CH = 52 then PH = 49. etc

Some are using a PH that is the same as CH and some are using a PH that is 1, 2 or 3 shots lower than CH.

To judge 36 points as "playing to handicap" you would need to make another adjustment by adding 0, 1, 2 or 3 points to your stableford score.

Lets call that process SPATCH.
Stableford Points Adjusted To Course Handicap.

Much better would be not to do this.
Your golf score is your gross score not your stableford points.
Judging how you "played to handicap" by comparing Score Differential to Handicap Index would be much better.

This is true, when looking at your Competition Score.

Of course, right at the start of WHS, long before CR-Par was thought of in this country, the authorities and many of the informed in here told golfers, time and time again, to only think of Course Handicap, not Playing Handicap. This was certainly important when deciding to pick up on a hole where you may get a shot on CH but not PH. Golfers were told not to worry so much about Playing Handicap, and just allow the computer to sort the results out.

So, talking that at face value and assuming golfers are now knowledgeable enough about the difference between their Playing and course handicaps, then a golfer who has a PH of 12 is probably also aware their CH is 13 in a medal / Stableford. If they score 35 points in a comp, they are probably aware they'd get 36 points on CH. So when thinking about Handicap, the player is probably aware what their Stableford / nett score is based on CH

 

[Backsticks]

I know.

And after due consideration, I differ in my view from their view.
This does not make me "wrong".

I have formed a different view.
I will continue to hold this view and I will always be able to explain why I hold this view.

If it irritates other people that I hold this view, then they will have to be irritated.
I believe I have a right to hold a different view from a majority.
And the majority have a right to hold their view.

It is certainly true that you are both entitled to your view, and, that your view, even though differing from the majority, may be correct.

But, you would also have to acknowledge I think, without changing your view necessarily, that your view, given firstly the fact that the majority disagrees with it, and secondarily, that those setting that majority view are probably more expert in the matter than you and have considered and consulted on in wider than you, that the probability is nevertheless, that your view is incorrect ?

 

[Voyager EMH]

This is true, when looking at your Competition Score.

Of course, right at the start of WHS, long before CR-Par was thought of in this country, the authorities and many of the informed in here told golfers, time and time again, to only think of Course Handicap, not Playing Handicap. This was certainly important when deciding to pick up on a hole where you may get a shot on CH but not PH. Golfers were told not to worry so much about Playing Handicap, and just allow the computer to sort the results out.

So, talking that at face value and assuming golfers are now knowledgeable enough about the difference between their Playing and course handicaps, then a golfer who has a PH of 12 is probably also aware their CH is 13 in a medal / Stableford. If they score 35 points in a comp, they are probably aware they'd get 36 points on CH. So when thinking about Handicap, the player is probably aware what their Stableford / nett score is based on CH

Some are "probably aware" and some are "probably unaware" and some are "probably confused" and some are "probably ignorant".

 

[Voyager EMH]

It is certainly true that you are both entitled to your view, and, that your view, even though differing from the majority, may be correct.

But, you would also have to acknowledge I think, without changing your view necessarily, that your view, given firstly the fact that the majority disagrees with it, and secondarily, that those setting that majority view are probably more expert in the matter than you and have considered and consulted on in wider than you, that the probability is nevertheless, that your view is incorrect ?

My view is neither correct nor incorrect.
It is a view that I have.
That is my view with regard to my view.

 

[Swango1980]

Some are "probably aware" and some are "probably unaware" and some are "probably confused" and some are "probably ignorant".

Indeed. There are many types of people. Many will never have your considerable knowledge and always be confused no matter what is done. Others will have a level of expertise way beyond you, and disagree with you as well.

I fully expect some to always get puzzled why their PH is different to CH. That is true now, and will be after CR-Par is introduced.

However, since long before WHS, many golfers never understood SSS and thought 36 points or nett par were playing to handicap. I'd be very rich if I got a quid every time I had to explain that. That confusion remained after WHS, as Par could still not be used by golfers, but CR. Extra confusing actually, because many golfers suddenly thought Slope would automatically account for absolute difficulty. Try explaining to the standard golfer at my place that in most cases they get same shots off yellows and whites, and some even get an extra shot off YELLOWS. Their mind is blown, and certainly not what they thought would happen logically.

CR-Par will instantly remedy this confusion. The handicap purists who already know the system inside out lose nothing. They can still nerd out over CR and Score Differentials if they choose to. Meanwhile, the "general" golfer gets a few extra shots when playing tougher courses (when this "toughness" is not reflected so much in the "random" par set, but is in a higher CR), which seems very logical to them. Everyone is a winner, except those having to fund the new handicap boards

 

[tobybarker]

So why come in and read it then

I've been reading it for months. it's going nowhere.

 

[rulefan]

The biggest positive is the 36 points becomes the 'playing to handicap'
And should put an end to the nobody beat 34 points and PCC was still 0, when playing to 34 could be playing better than handicap

I'm not convinced about the '36 points' but haven't seen anything else suggested as a good reason.

 

[rulefan]

Yet CONGU obviously have and the rest of the world obviously did.

Please identify them other than the 36 point stableford.

 

[Voyager EMH]

I think I'm still struggling with the idea that it's based on form rather than ability. Now the season is up and running I'm seeing start sheets with players handicaps and, knowing the good players in my area, it all seems out of whack with players handicaps relative to each other often looking just plain wrong. I guess that's a mindset thing but I'm not sure I'll ever agree that handicap shouldn't be your ability, you on a good day.

The "form" aspect isn't even true when you think about it. It's just how you performed on average on those days you submitted a card which for many players (including myself) is a fraction of the rounds they play. You could argue it was ever thus but at least the less volatile nature of the old system compensated for that a bit more.

I agree with this.
I've been playing in April and May with a handicap based on scores from late July, August and September of last year. Not current form in any way.
Come late July this year, I will be playing with a handicap based on the scores from a very wintry April, May and June.

I wonder if I should restrict the number of qualifying scores to 20 per year with an even spread from April to September.
That won't reflect current form in any way, but it might give me a more stable handicap based on general ability level.

I won't do this, I will carry on as normal, but its a thought.

 

[jim8flog]

Like not letting them play in elite events with to many GP cards as EG has done.
we all know it happens in golf but to many heads in the sand.
it happens at all levels, the system is to easily abused.

I play in one swindle whereby everybody who wants to put money in has to also put in a GP card.
If your suggestion was brought in those players would not be allowed to play in club comps!!!

I bet there are clubs that treat everybody who enters a swindle as submitting a GP card automatically when the swindle is organised by the club in particular
Rules of Handicapping G2.1a (1)

WHS requires that rounds in ‘organized competitions’ in an acceptable format are considered to have been pre-registered. This raises the question as to what comprises an ‘organized competition’? The term is broader than would previously have been considered by most clubs and players. Under WHS, for example, regular informal competitions, often organized as roll-ups or society events, would now fall into this category. Players have a responsibility to ensure that their scores from such events are returned to their home clubs.

 

[wjemather]

Please identify them other than the 36 point stableford.

Since WHS is a Stableford based system (nett double bogey adjustments) it makes sense for the number of strokes received for handicapping to reflect the difference between Course Rating and Par. However, as I've said many times, the difference in resultant HIs is insignificant, even if there is a large differential between CR and Par.

Also, mixed tee adjustments are much simpler, especially in Stableford comps!

 

[D-S]

Please identify them other than the 36 point stableford.

I would suggest waiting for the EG and CONGU information when it comes through. This will be given by experts and from organisations that obviously think that the time and hassle of changing is worth it. So they will have a better, more comprehensive list of reasons and benefits. It however telling that CONGU are changing and all the other Handicapping authorities worldwide chose to move to this.

 

[Voyager EMH]

CR-Par will not change the calculations of Handicap Index.
CR-Par will not change anyone's golf score on any course.
CR-Par will not change Score Differentials.

CR-Par moves everyone's handicap up a bit, or down a bit, by the same amount, which produces no significant change to the outcome of games played with and against others.

I am going to imagine organising a competition at my club.
I will tell everyone that they will all have a much easier and more enjoyable game.
"You can all add 3 shots to your playing handicap today. Enjoy!"

 

[Deleted member 29109]

CR-Par will not change the calculations of Handicap Index.
CR-Par will not change anyone's golf score on any course.
CR-Par will not change Score Differentials.

CR-Par moves everyone's handicap up a bit, or down a bit, by the same amount, which produces no significant change to the outcome of games played with and against others.

I am going to imagine organising a competition at my club.
I will tell everyone that they will all have a much easier and more enjoyable game.
"You can all add 3 shots to your playing handicap today. Enjoy!"

How does this make the game easier? Or more enjoyable?

Your ability to shoot a decent score hasn’t changed.