WHS doesn't work

[Voyager EMH]

How does this make the game easier? Or more enjoyable?

Your ability to shoot a decent score hasn’t changed.

I agree with what you say.

People seem to not enjoy it when they "don't get enough shots" on a course that is "difficult". Which is nonsense, of course. Yet it appears to be a majority view.

 

[clubchamp98]

I play in one swindle whereby everybody who wants to put money in has to also put in a GP card.
If your suggestion was brought in those players would not be allowed to play in club comps!!!

I bet there are clubs that treat everybody who enters a swindle as submitting a GP card automatically when the swindle is organised by the club in particular
Rules of Handicapping G2.1a (1)

WHS requires that rounds in ‘organized competitions’ in an acceptable format are considered to have been pre-registered. This raises the question as to what comprises an ‘organized competition’? The term is broader than would previously have been considered by most clubs and players. Under WHS, for example, regular informal competitions, often organized as roll-ups or society events, would now fall into this category. Players have a responsibility to ensure that their scores from such events are returned to their home clubs.

I never suggested anything.
I was answering a post asking if handicap manipulation really is going on.

 

[Swango1980]

I agree with what you say.

People seem to not enjoy it when they "don't get enough shots" on a course that is "difficult". Which is nonsense, of course. Yet it appears to be a majority view.

Shooting 39 points off yellows at my old place was playing to CR. Shooting 32 points at other courses is playing to CR.

Can you not understand Shooting 39 points at my old course will feel a lot more enjoyable than 32 points at the hard course to many golfers? I mean, I understand how the system works pretty much inside out, and even 38 points at my old place feels good enough, whilst 32 points at the hard course would feel like a bit of a battle, a bit of a slog. Even though I know it is ultimately a better Score Differential.

Whereas, just give me a course handicap of 9 at my old place, and 16 at the really difficult course, and I or others can just go out and aim for nett pars, or better hopefully, on each hole.

To yourself, as you say, it changes nothing, why keep talking about it. It sounds like you are complaining, but there is no need if it is of no disadvantage to you surely?

 

[Voyager EMH]

Shooting 39 points off yellows at my old place was playing to CR. Shooting 32 points at other courses is playing to CR.

Can you not understand Shooting 39 points at my old course will feel a lot more enjoyable than 32 points at the hard course to many golfers? I mean, I understand how the system works pretty much inside out, and even 38 points at my old place feels good enough, whilst 32 points at the hard course would feel like a bit of a battle, a bit of a slog. Even though I know it is ultimately a better Score Differential.

Whereas, just give me a course handicap of 9 at my old place, and 16 at the really difficult course, and I or others can just go out and aim for nett pars, or better hopefully, on each hole.

To yourself, as you say, it changes nothing, why keep talking about it. It sounds like you are complaining, but there is no need if it is of no disadvantage to you surely?

When someone asks me a question, I feel it is polite to reply.
I "keep talking about it" as you say, because I find it interesting and I like to read the responses to my alternative view of CR-Par that it is unnecessary and changes nothing.

For those whose thinking is still stuck in the old system of returning a nett score against the course, then CR-Par will help them remain in that way of thinking.
But we now return a gross score against the course.
The system does not take account of which holes you scored 1, 2 or 3 points on. It takes account of your gross (adjusted) score for 18 holes.

Your gross score is your golf score.
Stableford is a strokeplay competition format for playing with and against others where number of points scored is relative to each other and handicaps are relative to each other.

Nett scores and stableford points are not relative to play against the course in the way that they were in the previous system.
Your gross score, and thus score differential, is relative to the course.
Stableford points scored will never be as good a marker for play against the course as score differential is, even after CR-Par is introduced.

 

[Backsticks]

My view is neither correct nor incorrect.
It is a view that I have.
That is my view with regard to my view.

You would agree then, the the conclusion your view leads you to make, if not the view itself, is more than likely incorrect ?

 

[Voyager EMH]

You would agree then, the the conclusion your view leads you to make, if not the view itself, is more than likely incorrect ?

No, I would not agree, because, as I stated before, I do not consider my view can be correct or incorrect, it is a view, it is my view, and I am able to explain why I hold the view that I do.

 

[tobybarker]

can someone just clarify, in simple terms that I can relay to our old duffers, what playing to handicap actually would be? cr is 70.4 slope is 122 par is 70. assuming PCC is 0.

 

[Voyager EMH]

can someone just clarify, in simple terms that I can relay to our old duffers, what playing to handicap actually would be? cr is 70.4 slope is 122 par is 70. assuming PCC is 0.

"Playing to handicap" is a notion of the previous system.
It does not exist under the new system. Another way of looking at it is that there is no equivalent under the new system.

You return a gross score.
Handicap has no bearing on this gross score.

Your current handicap is based on your best 8 out of 20 of these gross scores. Your nett scores have no bearing on handicap assessment and adjustment.

IN COMPETITION WITH OTHERS.
Your nett score, or stableford points, are relative to the other players you are playing with and against.
Your nett score does not affect your handicap - your gross scores do.

A thing you can look at is the score differentials achieved for gross score played.
At your CR=70.4 and SR 122 course, an example would be,
82 = 10.7
83 = 11.7
84 = 12.6
These represent the handicap index that you "played to" on the day.

I hope this will help, as it is the perception of an "old duffer".

 

[wjemather]

"Playing to handicap" is a notion of the previous system.
It does not exist under the new system. Another way of looking at it is that there is no equivalent under the new system.

You return a gross score.
Handicap has no bearing on this gross score.

Your current handicap is based on your best 8 out of 20 of these gross scores. Your nett scores have no bearing on handicap assessment and adjustment.


IN COMPETITION WITH OTHERS.
Your nett score, or stableford points, are relative to the other players you are playing with and against.
Your nett score does not affect your handicap - your gross scores do.

A thing you can look at is the score differentials achieved for gross score played.
At your CR=70.4 and SR 122 course an example would be,
82 = 10.7
83 = 11.7
84 = 12.6
These represent the handicap index that you "played to" on the day.

Not true. The play to handicap score is an essential part of mixed tee adjustments. Accordingly, the phrase "play to handicap" appears 10 times in the Rules of Handicapping (Rule 6.2), and 12 times in CONGU's guidance.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Not true. The play to handicap score is an essential part of mixed tee adjustments. Accordingly, the phrase "play to handicap" appears 10 times in the Rules of Handicapping (Rule 6.2), and 12 times in CONGU's guidance.

And does it include a definition of "playing to handicap"?

 

[wjemather]

can someone just clarify, in simple terms that I can relay to our old duffers, what playing to handicap actually would be? cr is 70.4 slope is 122 par is 70. assuming PCC is 0.

With reference to Course Handicap, playing to handicap would be 36 Stableford points or nett par from tees with those ratings.

For Stableford, the play to handicap score (with reference to Course Handicap) is: 36 – round(Course Rating – Par)

 

[Swango1980]

can someone just clarify, in simple terms that I can relay to our old duffers, what playing to handicap actually would be? cr is 70.4 slope is 122 par is 70. assuming PCC is 0.

I don't think Voyagers response will help, no wonder people get confused

Just tell them, for your course, 36 points, or nett par (after nett double bogey adjustments), using course handicap

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Interesting that for the medal yesterday our cards were prep’d by the pro shop and no handicap information was given on the sticker - indeed the sticker covered most of where I’d write my handicap info. This indicates that all that mattered is our gross score. My marker still asked for my handicap at the end to work out my nett - but clearly a nett result as not actually required for the card.

We have to submit our score either through app or terminal and system works things out.

As it happens I get the thoughts of @Voyager EMH on what’s discussed in this thread though it seems I am in the minority that does.

 

[Voyager EMH]

With reference to Course Handicap, playing to handicap would be 36 Stableford points or nett par from tees with those ratings.

For Stableford, the play to handicap score (with reference to Course Handicap) is: 36 – round(Course Rating – Par)

But that does not work effectively, since some are scoring stableford points (and nett score) according to a playing handicap that is the same as their course handicap and some are scoring stableford points (and nett score) according to a playing handicap that is 1, 2 or 3 shots lower than their course handicap.

 

[Voyager EMH]

I don't think Voyagers response will help, no wonder people get confused

Just tell them, for your course, 36 points, or nett par (after nett double bogey adjustments), using course handicap

Well that is going to confuse people is it not?

You will have a nett score or stableford points in a comp, but you need to alter this by 0, 1, 2 or 3 shots to work out how you "played to handicap".

 

[Swango1980]

Well that is going to confuse people is it not?

You will have a nett score or stableford points in a comp, but you need to alter this by 0, 1, 2 or 3 shots to work out how you "played to handicap".

And, as I said earlier, it has been said thousands of times that players should be aware of their course handicap.

We are talking about handicaps, not placings in a competition. So, if a player is interested enough to know if they've played to handicap, then all they need to do, and be told, is that they should look at score using CH

 

[Voyager EMH]

My course is CR 70.8 and SR 132.

My current handicap index is 4.5

77 = 5.3
76 = 4.5
75 = 3.6

I do not need any other info to think about when my mind is searching for an equivalent to "playing to handicap".

Nett score and stableford points play no part in this.

 

[wjemather]

With reference to Course Handicap, playing to handicap would be 36 Stableford points or nett par from tees with those ratings.

For Stableford, the play to handicap score (with reference to Course Handicap) is: 36 – round(Course Rating – Par)

But that does not work effectively, since some are scoring stableford points (and nett score) according to a playing handicap that is the same as their course handicap and some are scoring stableford points (and nett score) according to a playing handicap that is 1, 2 or 3 shots lower than their course handicap.

What has Playing Handicap got to do with it?

 

[Voyager EMH]

What has Playing Handicap got to do with it?

Stableford is a strokeplay competition format where 95% of course handicap is used.
This is what Playing Handicap has to do with it.

 

[Swango1980]

My course is CR 70.8 and SR 132.

My current handicap index is 4.5

77 = 5.3
76 = 4.5
75 = 3.6

I do not need any other info to think about when my mind is searching for an equivalent to "playing to handicap".

Nett score and stableford points play no part in this.

And that is absolutely fine, and nobody is taking this away from you.

But, not every golfer will be reviewing their scores on an app. Not every golfer will be able to shoot a score, and immediately know their Score Differential. If I ever ask anyone how they played, not once in my life have they told me their score differential.

For most golfers, they are aware of their stableford or nett score. If I was to shoot 20 points, I can immediately say "I've not played to handicap today, not even close". No one would disagree. If it can be said I've not played to handicap, at some point there will be a score that suggests I have. At my course, that score is 37 points yellows, 36 whites. My old course, 39 points yellows, 37 whites.

Having different points totals at different courses can be confusing to golfers still. You know, the ones who just play golf and aren't overly nerdy about it, probably over 90% of golfers. And when CR-Par is introduced, that vanishes as we can all just look at 36 points as the benchmark, or nett par with the bad holes rounded down to.nett double