WHS abuse

[fairwaysngreens]

Exactly.
Some people think clubs have full time employees looking at this stuff.
Most clubs have volunteers doing the cards and comps results.
GP cards are a cheats charter ,it’s just wide open to abuse.
They are not looking for blatant cheating.
That’s why if they are caught they should be banned for life.

The General Play cards are just so hard to police and in a large club with a high volume of them going through the system it is just too hard for a volunteer H/C Sec to stay on top of them and forensically review them.

The time and effort that goes into running competitions/a club, that is largely done on a volunteer basis, I 100% agree with you, if someone is caught cheating and disprespecting they should be banned for life!

 

[NeilV]

Yes it "can be done" (can it, I don't know, but sure as hell shouldn't be), point is you're then meant to get a marker. Solo rounds do not count for handicap.

I am now aware that it shouldn't be. Up until an hour ago I wasn't aware I was doing anything wrong, and that it was legitimate because the app allowed me to do it. None of them are "solo rounds", they are all with other players. My belief was that a verifier had to hold a handicap, as the score can't be submitted electronically unless the player is registered on the system.

As I've already pointed out, now I know it's not correct, I will find out how to do it correctly.

 

[wjemather]

You are correct, I do not disagree.

But, in the real world, these things happen sadly. We used to have a competition secretary who did not DQ players if they didn't sign their card, as he felt it was harsh. You could say he needs sacked, but at the end of the day it would be almost impossible for 2 reasons:

1. He was a lovely guy, and on the whole did a great job. I guess he was just too nice, and didn't want to upset a player by DQing a player. Due to what he had done for the club, most if not all members would not have been demanding his sacking either, even if they knew of his shortcomings
2. There was no one else willing to do the job. The handicap secretary before me probably did the job for 4 or 5 years longer than he wanted, but there was absolutely no one else interested in the position.

So, a handicap secretary might look at the mitigating circumstances that a member simply does not have a friend to sign for a score, and incorrectly allow them to submit scores unverified, especially as it shows their Index coming down. They may say they trust this golfer, and it is clear they are acting with integrity. If other members found out, they may even mostly agree (the we are not playing for a row of houses brigade), although maybe a few might ask the handicap sec to review his decision (although again, no one else may ever know at all anyway). So sacking the handicap sec is very very unlikely.

Oh please. Let's not make excuses for incompetence.

Not applying the rules for fear of upsetting people only illustrates unsuitability for the job - and almost no-one ever gets upset over these things because they take responsibility for their own errors. If a club can truly find no volunteers (extremely unlikely), they need to employ someone.

 

[Swango1980]

Oh please. Let's not make excuses for incompetence.

Not applying the rules for fear of upsetting people only illustrates unsuitability for the job - and almost no-one ever gets upset over these things because they take responsibility for their own errors. If a club can truly find no volunteers (extremely unlikely), they need to employ someone.

I think you have simply failed to be exposed to the real world, and you think that the way things are done at your club will / should be the way things are done at all clubs. But, you should have picked up on one of my key points, I agreed with you that it was wrong. I never said it was right. However, when things that are done that are wrong, there is always a reason for them happening, otherwise they wouldn't have happened. Some reasons are inexcusable, and some you can have some empathy for. Unless you are the sort of person that sounds like a robot quoting chapter and verse from a rule book, and fails to empathise when things go wrong?

You also completely failed to read point Number 2. There was no one else to do the job. At least not in the immediate, short or medium term. So, do the club keep a handicap or competition secretary, who has dedicated much time and generally done a great job, simply because they have failed to strictly adhere to the rule book in all circumstances? And replace them with nobody? I can imagine it would be even harder to get a replacement given the way people felt the club treated the last guy who they respected.

 

[Swango1980]

Just out of interest, given that we know pin 100% blame onto Committee when things go wrong at clubs, does anyone know how devious behaviour it treated with England Golf's igolf?

Do England Golf have a Committee who check through all scores? Do they know that every round has been genuinely played at each club? Do they know that every score has been recorded honestly? Do they look at competition scores (say from Opens, albeit most may play Opens unacceptable for handicap) so that they can review handicaps, at least at Annual Review? Are England Golf's handicap Committee in an equally strong position as the Committee at wjemather's club for example?

 

[clubchamp98]

Yes, its increasingly clear from the disparities between clubs, that it is the clubs, not the system.

It’s not the clubs !
It’s individual golfers abusing a very easy system to circumvent.

 

[clubchamp98]

I think you have simply failed to be exposed to the real world, and you think that the way things are done at your club will / should be the way things are done at all clubs. But, you should have picked up on one of my key points, I agreed with you that it was wrong. I never said it was right. However, when things that are done that are wrong, there is always a reason for them happening, otherwise they wouldn't have happened. Some reasons are inexcusable, and some you can have some empathy for. Unless you are the sort of person that sounds like a robot quoting chapter and verse from a rule book, and fails to empathise when things go wrong?

You also completely failed to read point Number 2. There was no one else to do the job. At least not in the immediate, short or medium term. So, do the club keep a handicap or competition secretary, who has dedicated much time and generally done a great job, simply because they have failed to strictly adhere to the rule book in all circumstances? And replace them with nobody? I can imagine it would be even harder to get a replacement given the way people felt the club treated the last guy who they respected.

Given what you have highlited !
Is anybody suprized nobody will do it.
We all seen this coming,

 

[Backsticks]

Yes ,it’s all the clubs fault.
Let’s blame the volunteers for cheating golfers.
Nothing to do with a very easy system to abuse.

Golf has always had cheats we all know that.
WHS has just made it easier for them.
Heads in the sand .

No, I am not blaming the volunteers at all. I was that soldier.
I am blaming the members of the club. The culture of the club. The club is its constituent members, so yes, I blame the club, if it is unable to run its affairs satisfactorily. Many clubs clearly are. Mi e is not a rich or prestigious club with an army of support staff in an office. It more about expectations, responsibilities, and the golfing ethos. It sounds like some clubs are rotten full of cheats - and the honest members want the WHS to police them.

 

[clubchamp98]

No, I am not blaming the volunteers at all. I was that soldier.
I am blaming the members of the club. The culture of the club. The club is its constituent members, so yes, I blame the club, if it is unable to run its affairs satisfactorily. Many clubs clearly are. Mi e is not a rich or prestigious club with an army of support staff in an office. It more about expectations, responsibilities, and the golfing ethos. It sounds like some clubs are rotten full of cheats - and the honest members want the WHS to police them.

Clubs are not full of cheats.
They are a very small minority.
But WHS has made it so much easier than it used to be.
The real brazen ones know it’s unlikely they will be caught.
A bit like burglary with no police officers offenders are just not being caught because nobody is looking for them.

 

[Swango1980]

No, I am not blaming the volunteers at all. I was that soldier.
I am blaming the members of the club. The culture of the club. The club is its constituent members, so yes, I blame the club, if it is unable to run its affairs satisfactorily. Many clubs clearly are. Mi e is not a rich or prestigious club with an army of support staff in an office. It more about expectations, responsibilities, and the golfing ethos. It sounds like some clubs are rotten full of cheats - and the honest members want the WHS to police them.

But, this statement could be a contradiction. If you blame the club, in many cases that blame is on the Committee. After all, they will often run the club. They are the ones that need to set the example and educate golfers in the best way they can. But, in most cases it is not really the clubs fault at all, it is simply the type of members the club attracts, which can be down to membership prices and status/prestige of the club

My old club, at least when we actually had a Committee, was run very well I would like to think. Competitions were maybe only 30-40 competitors, but most were regulars. So, we knew them inside out, and it would probably become apparent if they were cheating in the ways described (and I doubt it is something a regular would do, knowing they have to look at everyone else in the eye every week). Big scores were still scored in comps, but these were generally new golfers starting on silly high handicaps because their 1st handful of scores were much worse than their ability. So, as we had many of these new golfers coming in over a period of time, they dominated comps between them.

However, there were probably 200-300 members that we never saw. They never enter comps, but they pay cheap membership rates and then just play outside competitions. After WHS, more and more started handing in scores for their handicaps. When I was handicap secretary, I had zero idea if these scores were genuine. I'd like to think they were, and in most cases I am certain they were. But, I'd have no way of knowing if the scores were doctored, and they were on a handicap much higher than they should be. Perhaps they'd then enter a big club comp and get a very good score, get a bit of a cut. I'd still be in no strong position to act further, as perhaps it was just a freak good score. Or, maybe they avoid club acceptable score comps, and play in match plays. They may do very well, but I have no idea if their scores are unrealistically good, their opponents poor, etc. unless they get more and more matches in and scores are unusually good. Or, maybe they avoid club comps altogether, and play in Open Comps and clean up. I'd have had no idea this was happening, unless other clubs contacted our club, which is extremely rare.

So, if these types of cheating players exist, and we know they have done for many decades, then it could take a very very long time to actually determine they were cheating. I'd imagine you'd be lucky to identify it quickly, because you'd need enough quality evidence, and that evidence to be highlighted to you in the first place. As I've said, these types of players may well be attracted to cheaper, less prestigious clubs, used as a vehicle to simply get a handicap. Maybe a lot of them will swap over to igolf, if they are Open players and organisers allow igolf handicaps. This way, I suspect they protect themselves even more from the prying eyes of Committee, and for a cheaper price than golf club membership

 

[jim8flog]

I reckon my HI would be about 5 shots higher if I only submitted rounds I could have verified.

.

Your Handicap Index can only go 5 shots higher than the Low Handicap index you have had in the previous 12 months ( on a rolling basis).

If you have no one to verify you should put cards in rather than signing in to the app.

wjemather comments about are marker are club specific. You need to check with your own club who constitutes a marker. We require the marker to have a handicap unless authorised by the committee .

 

[jim8flog]

There is no requirement for your marker to hold a handicap. .

This is something which is club specific and each clubs sets it's own rules for who constitutes a marker.

R&A Definitions

Marker
.......
The Committee may identify who will be the player’s marker or tell the players how they may choose a marker.


We require a marker to have a handicap unless the person is authorised by the committee.

 

[clubchamp98]

So some Joe Bloggs walking past the club entrance can mark your card if you ask him.
Providing your comittiee allows it .
That sounds mental.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

So some Joe Bloggs walking past the club entrance can mark your card if you ask him.
Providing your comittiee allows it .
That sounds mental.

No, clearly a marker has to be there marking your card, not just signing it when you've finished, that's no different than not having it witnessed at all.

 

[nickjdavis]

So some Joe Bloggs walking past the club entrance can mark your card if you ask him.
Providing your comittiee allows it .
That sounds mental.

There is a Joe Bloggs on the England Golf WHS platform though...

 

[Yorkshire Hacker]

As I understand it, the My EG thingy sends a message to the marker for them to verify. Thus it has to be someone registered on My EG. I'm sure that's correct, and so it should be.

 

[IanM]

I wonder how many clubs have a handicap committee that has the time and capability to do what they are meant to?

As soon as the whs proposals came out, there were cries of disbelief about how it makes cheating easier. (Not saying it wasn't possible before)

Chickens coming home to roost now. Well done whoever is responsible.

 

[Wabinez]

As I understand it, the My EG thingy sends a message to the marker for them to verify. Thus it has to be someone registered on My EG. I'm sure that's correct, and so it should be.

yes, but you don’t need to use MyEG to submit a card.

then it is up to the clubs to set up how to submit cards on their ISV.

 

[Jigger]

I

Out here in OZ you can put in the two nines from different courses, how it works has got me beat, I have friends who play a twilight 9 holes on a Friday at one course then another on Tuesday at a different course, weather is different just for starters.

Crazy system from the get go in my opinion.

here in the UK it will assume you hit handicap for the other 9 I think.

 

[wjemather]

here in the UK it will assume you hit handicap for the other 9 I think.

A second 9 equivalent to 17 points Stableford over the same 9 holes is added to create an 18-hole differential.

In many other jurisdictions, such as Australia, 9-hole scores are held until another 9-hole score is entered; they are then matched to create an 18-hole differential; if no further 9-hole score is entered within 20 scores, it is discarded.

Since 9-hole scores are one of the options in WHS, it's possible that some jurisdictions simply do not accept them at all.