WHS abuse

[HeftyHacker]

The first time I tried uploading a score on my phone I did exactly the same thing. The first time I didn't realise the score had been accepted, so I tried again and a third time when I thought the second time hadn't worked. It was only the next day when I checked, that I noticed what I had done. A call to the club soon put it right and it appears that it was not an uncommon occurrence.

Sometimes the clubs themselves do it as well. I ended up with 2 from a recent open at silverdale, both different gross scores weirdly.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Is there not a chance that it’s operator error and it’s actually just the couple rounds - we have seen it happen where someone has managed to put a round on EG and his mate puts round on IG using him etc

 

[Bamberdele2.0]

Is there not a chance that it’s operator error and it’s actually just the couple rounds - we have seen it happen where someone has managed to put a round on EG and his mate puts round on IG using him etc

Well yes, and that’s what he’s said. You’d be pretty stupid to put 4 x identical 92’s in over 2 days to try and fiddle the system as it’s not discreet in the slightest.

However a lot has happened since those duplicate cards where he’s done himself no favours and the club has suspended him. Committee coming to a decision this week.

 

[IanM]

Like what?

 

[Swango1980]

One of the downsides of the system, or at least one of the hurdles that always needed to be overcome.

As soon as golfers could enter their own scores and have them impact on their handicap, without any checks from a Committee, these sorts of things were always bound to happen to one degree or another. Either a golfer simply messing up accidentally because they do not understand the tech or the tech lets them down / isn't clear enough. Or giving a platform for genuine cheats, who really do not overly care about integrity.

At least before every score was verified as acceptable by Committee before being transferred onto the players record. Of course, the advantage now is that many more players can submit scores in general play, and it doesn't waste lots of the Committees time by having to verify everything, and all that goes with it (check cards signed, hole scores, etc)

I can imagine these sorts of things are not always easy to pick up (does the system now automatically flag consecutive poor rounds and sudden increases in handicap?). Especially if a mischievous golfer is a lot more clever in dodgy scores they enter.

I'll be intrigued to know how handicaps are reviewed on igolf. It would not shock me if a small proportion of mates, who are able to use igolf handicaps in Open competitions, will manufacture scores to ensure they have very comfortable handicaps to bring to those events. Hopefully, if they were a member of a club, exposed to other members in competitions, such things would be highlighted and dealt with. Not sure how it is dealt with in igolf though?

 

[IanM]

My mate called WHS a "cheats charter" and the above is what he meant. Many clubs wouldn't monitor this.

 

[rosecott]

I can imagine these sorts of things are not always easy to pick up (does the system now automatically flag consecutive poor rounds and sudden increases in handicap?). Especially if a mischievous golfer is a lot more clever in dodgy scores they enter.

Surely an efficient Handicap Committee would be monitoring the Soft Cap/Hard Cap report available on WHS?

That would at least identify those players whose handicaps are increasing significantly, alerting the Handicap Committee for further investigation if considered necessary.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Through the MyEG app, you need someone with the app to verify/attest.

I believe the system gives 48 hours to verify, otherwise a penalty score is applied. This is likely to be CR+HI so that there are no changes to index, or at least any change is small. These will be marked with a small 'P' next to the score.

If scores are submitted by Intelligent Golf, HDiD or Master Scoreboard...it is up to the club to ensure the correct verification procedures are put in place. When it first came about, I could submit a score around my home course using IG without any verification required. Felt wrong, so I only did it the once, and then used MyEG.

This is indeed how it is. A mate and I submitted GP cards using the myEG app from an awayday - I was identified by him in the app as his marker. For whatever reason (I think he lost Internet connectivity at the point of registering me as marker) I never got a message or email asking me to attest his score. And I didn’t think about chasing him up on it. 2 days after the round he had a 0.2 penalty added (by England Golf) to his HI.

Golf Manager at my place said their was little he could do about what happened to my mate…said he’d see if he could get the P removed from his round as he took my word as attestation and as players we don’t want Penalty rounds on our record.

Importantly I think, he said that though was nothing stopping a player accumulating cards with no attestation and getting 0.2 added and round flagged with a P every time..but as Golf Manager he‘d be asking the player serious questions about WTH was going on.

 

[Swango1980]

Surely an efficient Handicap Committee would be monitoring the Soft Cap/Hard Cap report available on WHS?

That would at least identify those players whose handicaps are increasing significantly, alerting the Handicap Committee for further investigation if considered necessary.

Perhaps, but not all clubs have that. Not through negligence either, but perhaps lack of time for volunteers. Also unsure such behaviour can be easily flagged. If someone does it regular, their low cap itself may be a lot higher than it should be, as they never play consistently well enough to drive it down

 

[rosecott]

Perhaps, but not all clubs have that. Not through negligence either, but perhaps lack of time for volunteers. Also unsure such behaviour can be easily flagged. If someone does it regular, their low cap itself may be a lot higher than it should be, as they never play consistently well enough to drive it down

Well, what is the point of having a Handicap Committee if they don't do simple things like that? I'm not sure what you mean when you say not all clubs have that.

 

[Swango1980]

Well, what is the point of having a Handicap Committee if they don't do simple things like that?

How simple is it? Unless the abuse is as obvious as the OP, how do they know multiple recent records are dodgy? Does the system sense the players intent, and ring an alarm bell to the handicap sec?

And, even if it is the OP, is there a flag to say a player has submitted multiple high rounds, with a suspicious pattern. They won't review every player at the club's scoring record, so if many players submit GP rounds, how do they always identify potential dodgy ones?

 

[Alan Clifford]

The England Golf app. requires you to be near the course and for a witness to verify your score. I don't think these are roles the app. should be undertaking.
I play golf with my wife and we live near the course. We could sit at the dining room table and submit scores without actually playing, so it seems to me that the location and verification functions in the app. are pointless.

 

[Swango1980]

The England Golf app. requires you to be near the course and for a witness to verify your score. I don't think these are roles the app. should be undertaking.
I play golf with my wife and we live near the course. We could sit at the dining room table and submit scores without actually playing, so it seems to me that the location and verification functions in the app. are pointless.

Well, they aren't pointless. Without it, virtually any golfer could do what you describe, if they were that way inclined. The restrictions on the App severely limit the number of golfers that could do this to just those that live next to the course.

I hope you and your wife do not do this btw

 

[IanM]

I hope you and your wife do not do this btw

He can't answer currently. He's on the 7.30 flight to Faro for the golf trip they won!

 

[Wabinez]

The England Golf app. requires you to be near the course and for a witness to verify your score. I don't think these are roles the app. should be undertaking.
I play golf with my wife and we live near the course. We could sit at the dining room table and submit scores without actually playing, so it seems to me that the location and verification functions in the app. are pointless.

How would you intend to remedy the situation? It's all good saying it is pointless, but you haven't offered any other alternative.


There is always an element of GPS not picking up locations exactly, so there will need to be an area of error that the geofence can include. I assume golf clubs were also asked to provide a 'central point' where the latitude/longitude was taken, so the area pushes out from this central point and the app identifies if you are within the fence.

As for verification, I don't think there is an explanation required as to why this is needed. It's no different to signing a scorecard. And much more economically friendly. And helps take workload off various handicap committees.

 

[Alan Clifford]

How would you intend to remedy the situation? It's all good saying it is pointless, but you haven't offered any other alternative.

I just don't think the handicap system is the place to prevent cheating. As for the location, we live a mile away from our home course so, basically, anyone could drive close enough to defeat this restriction. Unfortunatly, I have no suggestions to defeat cheating.

In contrast, the South African system has none of this; they just insist you enter your score or you are penalized.

 

[Alan Clifford]

He can't answer currently. He's on the 7.30 flight to Faro for the golf trip they won!

Sadly, I haven't won a golfing jolly since the 2019 Virgin Swingers final in Lancashire. And given the state of my legs and back, winning anything like that again is improbable.

 

[wjemather]

I just don't think the handicap system is the place to prevent cheating. As for the location, we live a mile away from our home course so, basically, anyone could drive close enough to defeat this restriction. Unfortunatly, I have no suggestions to defeat cheating.

In contrast, the South African system has none of this; they just insist you enter your score or you are penalized.

In South Africa, rounds must still be played by the Rules of Golf and in an acceptable format. There isn't any mechanism to prevent dishonesty in this regard or simply entering scores that never happened - which is effectively no different to the issue you identify here.

 

[Swango1980]

I just don't think the handicap system is the place to prevent cheating. As for the location, we live a mile away from our home course so, basically, anyone could drive close enough to defeat this restriction. Unfortunatly, I have no suggestions to defeat cheating.

In contrast, the South African system has none of this; they just insist you enter your score or you are penalized.

Two issues:

1. If players are willing to drive close enough to the golf course, simply to cheat and plug in a fake score, fair enough. They deserve a prize for effort. But in all seriousness, if someone was willing to do that, they'd still be cheating if there was no restriction to signing in near the golf course, so the problem is not eliminated. It just means anyone can do it, and the cheats you talk off save money on petrol
2. I'm not sure how the South African system is doing anything better. The same applies over here, there are just less restrictions in the South African tech? So, it is easier to cheat in South Africa?

And, to be clear, I think you were not just suggesting that the app should not have this restriction on pre-registration (i.e. being close to the club), but you also suggest it should not ask for anyone to verify your score? If so, how does not asking for a person to verify your score help? This is a necessary part of the procedure in submitting scores under the handicapping guidelines

 

[nickjdavis]

Sadly, I haven't won a golfing jolly since the 2019 Virgin Swingers final in Lancashire. And given the state of my legs and back, winning anything like that again is improbable.

Thats what getting involved with Virgin Swingers does for you.