WHS abuse

[3offTheTee]

Thats what getting involved with Virgin Swingers does for you.

Is that speaking from experience my friend

 

[rosecott]

How simple is it? Unless the abuse is as obvious as the OP, how do they know multiple recent records are dodgy? Does the system sense the players intent, and ring an alarm bell to the handicap sec?

And, even if it is the OP, is there a flag to say a player has submitted multiple high rounds, with a suspicious pattern. They won't review every player at the club's scoring record, so if many players submit GP rounds, how do they always identify potential dodgy ones?

Very simple. You click on the Soft Cap/Hard Cap report from WHS. You discount those who are known by committee members to play regularly in competition and don't raise any suspicions. You definitely look at any player whose handicap has risen by 3 or more from their low index by dint of regular General Play rounds well above their index.

You still haven't said what you meant by "not all clubs have that".

 

[wjemather]

How simple is it? Unless the abuse is as obvious as the OP, how do they know multiple recent records are dodgy? Does the system sense the players intent, and ring an alarm bell to the handicap sec?

And, even if it is the OP, is there a flag to say a player has submitted multiple high rounds, with a suspicious pattern. They won't review every player at the club's scoring record, so if many players submit GP rounds, how do they always identify potential dodgy ones?

Very simple. You click on the Soft Cap/Hard Cap report from WHS. You discount those who are known by committee members to play regularly in competition and don't raise any suspicions. You definitely look at any player whose handicap has risen by 3 or more from their low index by dint of regular General Play rounds well above their index.

The "Competition vs General Scores Report" is also very useful.

 

[YandaB]

The "Competition vs General Scores Report" is also very useful.

Agreed but it needs work, always filter such that there are at least 3 comp and GP scores, calculate the differences between the 2 and also add in a percentage compared to handicap. We do get the occasional people that shoot the same. I find that a significantly larger proportion are worse in comp than GP (backs up most peoples thoughts). It's still not concrete evidence, not really sure how to take it further, other than it's a small list of people to keep an eye on. I guess that it's best value would be to ensure that everyone knows that we are looking at it.

 

[wjemather]

Agreed but it needs work, always filter such that there are at least 3 comp and GP scores, calculate the differences between the 2 and also add in a percentage compared to handicap. We do get the occasional people that shoot the same. I find that a significantly larger proportion are worse in comp than GP (backs up most peoples thoughts). It's still not concrete evidence, not really sure how to take it further, other than it's a small list of people to keep an eye on. I guess that it's best value would be to ensure that everyone knows that we are looking at it.

It's fairly simple to export and manipulate the data to achieve this, but it would be much better if the reports were customisable to a greater extent than they are - or even if the system allowed us to create our own reports.

 

[Swango1980]

It's fairly simple to export and manipulate the data to achieve this, but it would be much better if the reports were customisable to a greater extent than they are - or even if the system allowed us to create our own reports.

An "efficient" handicap committee. Don't get me wrong, they have a responsibility, so that is largely on the club. But I just wasn't aware how helpful the tech was these days to give them a helping hand. It is easy for some volunteers to completely miss out on things. Very few research very heavily, or come on forums like this to get a lot of useful info.

 

[Jigger]

Just out of interest are you allowed to put in multiple scores on the same day anyway?

You can even do two 9s instead of 18

its massively open for abuse as I know of people signing cards when they hadn’t played with the person but then I think the majority of club golfers are honest / want their handicap down rather than up.

 

[chellie]

You can even do two 9s instead of 18

its massively open for abuse as I know of people signing cards when they hadn’t played with the person but then I think the majority of club golfers are honest / want their handicap down rather than up.

Reported them I assume.

 

[Jigger]

Reported them I assume.

For the purposes they did it for I’d didn’t. It was with the sole intention of getting a more accurate lower handicap for when they went away. If they were manufacturing scores to get it higher then yes I would’ve have.

 

[wjemather]

For the purposes they did it for I’d didn’t. It was with the sole intention of getting a more accurate lower handicap for when they went away. If they were manufacturing scores to get it higher then yes I would’ve have.

Any manipulation should be reported.
It's impossible to have a "more accurate... handicap" if a handicap record includes scores that are not acceptable! By definition, the handicap is then less accurate.

 

[Jigger]

Any manipulation should be reported.
It's impossible to have a "more accurate... handicap" if a handicap record includes scores that are not acceptable! By definition, the handicap is then less accurate.

I agree but disagree at the same time. There’s plenty out there not recording rounds and keeping their handicap artificially high. The only way handicaps will be as close to good as possible is if everyone recorded all rounds that would qualify. It just doesn’t happen.

There’s also the fact that if I reported everything I’ve witnessed on a golf course I’d be classed as the biggest moaner around! Battle have to be picked.

 

[wjemather]

I agree but disagree at the same time. There’s plenty out there not recording rounds and keeping their handicap artificially high. The only way handicaps will be as close to good as possible is if everyone recorded all rounds that would qualify. It just doesn’t happen.

Submitting all acceptable scores isn't a requirement. Even if it were, a witness would still be required to certify such scores in order to make them acceptable - a random person who hasn't witnessed anything would still be unacceptable.

 

[Jigger]

Submitting all acceptable scores isn't a requirement. Even if it were, a witness would still be required to certify such scores in order to make them acceptable - a random person who hasn't witnessed anything would still be unacceptable.

yes I know.

 

[fairwaysngreens]

We had two lads caught in our club putting through cards without even playing the course to try and increase their handicap.
This was done over the course of a few weeks/months so it was not a one time thing.
Caught red-handed so they didn't dispute that they did it when confronted.
Handicaps were suspended for 3 months so they can't play in competitions but they can/and are still playing casual golf (even if they can't currently submit WHS scores).
Am I wrong in thinking that they have been let off the hook with such a weak sanction? I feel like they should've been thrown out of the club or at the very least suspended for a year... or am I way off the mark and overly harsh?
Has this come up at any other clubs and if so how were the cheaters dealt with/what sanction was imposed on them... if any?

 

[clubchamp98]

We had two lads caught in our club putting through cards without even playing the course to try and increase their handicap.
This was done over the course of a few weeks/months so eit was not a one time thing.
Caught red-handed so they didn't dispute that they did it when confronted.
Handicaps were suspended for 3 months so they can't play in competitions but they can/and are still playing casual golf (even if they can't currently submit WHS scores).
Am I wrong in thinking that they have been let off the hook with such a weak sanction? I feel like they should've been thrown out of the club or at the very least suspended for a year... or am I way off the mark and overly harsh?
Has this come up at any other clubs and if so how were the cheaters dealt with/what sanction was imposed on them... if any?

They should have been thrown out of the club and reported to the authorities that matter.
I would ban them from comps for life.
There is a line and that imo is way over it.

 

[Swango1980]

We had two lads caught in our club putting through cards without even playing the course to try and increase their handicap.
This was done over the course of a few weeks/months so it was not a one time thing.
Caught red-handed so they didn't dispute that they did it when confronted.
Handicaps were suspended for 3 months so they can't play in competitions but they can/and are still playing casual golf (even if they can't currently submit WHS scores).
Am I wrong in thinking that they have been let off the hook with such a weak sanction? I feel like they should've been thrown out of the club or at the very least suspended for a year... or am I way off the mark and overly harsh?
Has this come up at any other clubs and if so how were the cheaters dealt with/what sanction was imposed on them... if any?

Exactly the sort of thing I said would happen even before WHS was launched.

I was told to stop being silly, people feeling sorry for me for not thinking golfers had integrity.

I'm happy / hopeful that 99% absolutely do have integrity. But, it can hurt us all when 1% of golfers don't. The tech still makes it easy for such golfers to do such things. Really got to he hopeful handicap committees can identify it, although difficult to know how they would easily identify what happened in your case. I'd imagine most clubs don't log tee times in social golf, and tie them up with General Play scores.

 

[rulefan]

I'd imagine most clubs don't log tee times in social golf, and tie them up with General Play scores.

Isn't pre-registering effectively logging tee times?

 

[nickjdavis]

Isn't pre-registering effectively logging tee times?

Yes but if your club does not have a tee booking system then there is nothing to compare it against....even if it does, it's an awful lot of work to reconcile the logged times of GP scores that are submitted, against the "tee book".

 

[clubchamp98]

Yes but if your club does not have a tee booking system then there is nothing to compare it against....even if it does, it's an awful lot of work to reconcile the logged times of GP scores that are submitted, against the "tee book".

Exactly.
Some people think clubs have full time employees looking at this stuff.
Most clubs have volunteers doing the cards and comps results.
GP cards are a cheats charter ,it’s just wide open to abuse.
They are not looking for blatant cheating.
That’s why if they are caught they should be banned for life.

 

[AussieKB]

You can even do two 9s instead of 18

its massively open for abuse as I know of people signing cards when they hadn’t played with the person but then I think the majority of club golfers are honest / want their handicap down rather than up.

Out here in OZ you can put in the two nines from different courses, how it works has got me beat, I have friends who play a twilight 9 holes on a Friday at one course then another on Tuesday at a different course, weather is different just for starters.

Crazy system from the get go in my opinion.