WHS abuse

[Swango1980]

Isn't pre-registering effectively logging tee times?

Didn't you read the post I was directly replying it to, and then figure out the context?

nickjdavis effectively gave the correct response

 

[Backsticks]

Exactly.
Some people think clubs have full time employees looking at this stuff.
Most clubs have volunteers doing the cards and comps results.
GP cards are a cheats charter ,it’s just wide open to abuse.
They are not looking for blatant cheating.
That’s why if they are caught they should be banned for life.

Yet many clubs have no problem, 39-42 wins most comps, 45+ is unheard of, etc.
And maybe it is a cheats charter. If you have cheats in your club.
Clubs who havent seen the problem are filled with honest members. And those who think WHS doesnt work are in clubs with a culture of dishonesty, cheating, and abusing the rules and responsibilities of amateur sport.
The silution could be for problem clubs to look inwards, at their own problm, not outward to WHS.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

Yet many clubs have no problem, 39-42 wins most comps, 45+ is unheard of, etc.
And maybe it is a cheats charter. If you have cheats in your club.
Clubs who havent seen the problem are filled with honest members. And those who think WHS doesnt work are in clubs with a culture of dishonesty, cheating, and abusing the rules and responsibilities of amateur sport.
The silution could be for problem clubs to look inwards, at their own problm, not outward to WHS.

You missed the bit about volunteers running most clubs eh? If you've a lot of members, and they're putting in a lot of GP cards, what's the solution?

 

[clubchamp98]

Yet many clubs have no problem, 39-42 wins most comps, 45+ is unheard of, etc.
And maybe it is a cheats charter. If you have cheats in your club.
Clubs who havent seen the problem are filled with honest members. And those who think WHS doesnt work are in clubs with a culture of dishonesty, cheating, and abusing the rules and responsibilities of amateur sport.
The silution could be for problem clubs to look inwards, at their own problm, not outward to WHS.

Yes ,it’s all the clubs fault.
Let’s blame the volunteers for cheating golfers.
Nothing to do with a very easy system to abuse.

Golf has always had cheats we all know that.
WHS has just made it easier for them.
Heads in the sand .

 

[Backsticks]

Yes ,it’s all the clubs fault.
Nothing to do with a very easy system to abuse.

Yes, its increasingly clear from the disparities between clubs, that it is the clubs, not the system.

 

[Swango1980]

Yet many clubs have no problem, 39-42 wins most comps, 45+ is unheard of, etc.
And maybe it is a cheats charter. If you have cheats in your club.
Clubs who havent seen the problem are filled with honest members. And those who think WHS doesnt work are in clubs with a culture of dishonesty, cheating, and abusing the rules and responsibilities of amateur sport.
The silution could be for problem clubs to look inwards, at their own problm, not outward to WHS.

I'm glad that at least some are acknowledging there is a problem at some clubs, just not their own club that has good, honest members.

Sadly, there are a lot of different types of golf clubs. If you are a member at Wentworth, St Andrew's, Woodhall Spa, I'd be surprised if you saw a problem. Even at any higher profile club, respected club within a county. Not due to the strength of the Committee, there is just too much to lose for members to be that devious.

However, there are plenty of lower profile clubs. Still with a majority of good honest players. But, the clubs are relatively cheaper, and maybe considered a good platform for new golfers to try the game. For any devious players out there, these clubs are an attractive club to join. Perhaps a less active Committee due to volunteers, and even if they get caught, not a huge drama. No big financial loss, maybe they don't even live and die to play golf, and have other things to do if they are forced to quit playing. So, they just con the system as much as they can. Those people do exist, and they are more likely to be at some clubs than others.

The owner at my old club effectively got rid of a formal Committee when the last Committee walked out over a year ago. He wanted complete control, and didn't want to have to answer to a Committee when he favoured visitors over members, for example. So, he has named people in the key positions just to do the basic admin (one volunteer is effectively handicap sec, comp sec and treasurer all in one). The club saw crazy high scores just after WHS anyway, due to many new golfers after lockdown. It continues to have many high winning scores. However, it would be simple to cheat without this one person finding out. And, if they did, I doubt they'd be banned as short term money is more important than integrity, even if that hurts long term. Yes, the owner situation is the key problem here, not WHS. But, the the tech and WHS now make it a potential cheaters paradise

 

[clubchamp98]

Yes, its increasingly clear from the disparities between clubs, that it is the clubs, not the system.

Some golfers cheat ,some don’t.
Your lucky if you don’t have any.
But for me if you put a system in place that is so easy to manipulate you can’t blame the clubs.
It’s the WHS at fault not volunteers at golf clubs.

 

[Slab]

Some golfers cheat ,some don’t.
Your lucky if you don’t have any.
But for me if you put a system in place that is so easy to manipulate you can’t blame the clubs.
It’s the WHS at fault not volunteers at golf clubs.

In this context isn’t it gotta be those particular players that are the problem rather than the club or the system

(otherwise its a bit like saying shoplifters aren’t the problem it’s the stores or manufactures at fault for not nailing everything down or making stuff too shiny)

Interesting to ponder though, I wonder how much time was spent discussing 'system abuse' and safeguards when the whole WHS was being conceived/built

 

[NeilV]

Hmm. A lot of my rounds are unverified. There's only one other guy in my regular group who maintains a handicap and he's been injured for a lot of this year. I submit pretty much every round (unless I forget to pre register which happens occasionally).

I like to keep is as accurate as I can because I play a few society days every year. I reckon my HI would be about 5 shots higher if I only submitted rounds I could have verified.

This thread has got me thinking about whether I should continue to do this though.

Edit: I've submitted scores ranging from 106 to 89, so not demonstrating quite the same level of consistency as the one in the OP.

 

[Swango1980]

In this context isn’t it gotta be those particular players that are the problem rather than the club or the system

(otherwise its a bit like saying shoplifters aren’t the problem it’s the stores or manufactures at fault for not nailing everything down or making stuff too shiny)

Interesting to ponder though, I wonder how much time was spent discussing 'system abuse' and safeguards when the whole WHS was being conceived/built

Of course, the cheaters are the main problem themselves. It is like roads are not dangerous, it is the bad drivers that use them. But, we need to design roads to be safer, add barriers, signs, speed limits, etc. to minimise the damage.

Since WHS, there can be no doubt that the system we have now makes it easier for these cheaters. The tech itself, and how we allow scores to automatically impact a players handicap without and Committee verification is the first issue. Although it was a necessary evil, so scores could be submitted and impact the days PCC (which in itself has been questionable). The other issue is that handicaps can now increase rapidly. The soft and hard caps may help a bit, but still allow an increase of 6 shots at most clubs. And, if you have a genuine cheat who has no ambition to reduce their handicap, they can just continually submit scores such that their low Index is never close to what they really could have got it down to if they consistently tried.

 

[Swango1980]

Hmm. A lot of my rounds are unverified. There's only one other guy in my regular group who maintains a handicap and he's been injured for a lot of this year. I submit pretty much every round (unless I forget to pre register which happens occasionally).

I like to keep is as accurate as I can because I play a few society days every year. I reckon my HI would be about 5 shots higher if I only submitted rounds I could have verified.

This thread has got me thinking about whether I should continue to do this though.

So, although your motives are clearly not devious, you are still effectively abusing the system. Your responsibility is to ensure you have a marker sign for your scores, and technically you could have your handicap suspended for not doing this. Although, I'd imagine only a few Committees would do this, many might remind you not to do this, maybe few would tell you to crack on.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

In this context isn’t it gotta be those particular players that are the problem rather than the club or the system

(otherwise its a bit like saying shoplifters aren’t the problem it’s the stores or manufactures at fault for not nailing everything down or making stuff too shiny)

Interesting to ponder though, I wonder how much time was spent discussing 'system abuse' and safeguards when the whole WHS was being conceived/built

I'd suggest none.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

Hmm. A lot of my rounds are unverified. There's only one other guy in my regular group who maintains a handicap and he's been injured for a lot of this year. I submit pretty much every round (unless I forget to pre register which happens occasionally).

I like to keep is as accurate as I can because I play a few society days every year. I reckon my HI would be about 5 shots higher if I only submitted rounds I could have verified.

This thread has got me thinking about whether I should continue to do this though.

Edit: I've submitted scores ranging from 106 to 89, so not demonstrating quite the same level of consistency as the one in the OP.

No you shouldn't be doing this, and nor should they be being accepted. How are you managing to submit rounds that haven't had a marker?

 

[NeilV]

So, although your motives are clearly not devious, you are still effectively abusing the system. Your responsibility is to ensure you have a marker sign for your scores, and technically you could have your handicap suspended for not doing this. Although, I'd imagine only a few Committees would do this, many might remind you not to do this, maybe few would tell you to crack on.

Which is a completely fair point, and hadn't actually thought about it that way until I read through this thread. Not quite sure what to do now. I'm trending downwards fairly quickly at the moment, and I'm going to look like a real bandit in the society if I carry on playing the way I have been.

 

[wjemather]

So, although your motives are clearly not devious, you are still effectively abusing the system. Your responsibility is to ensure you have a marker sign for your scores, and technically you could have your handicap suspended for not doing this. Although, I'd imagine only a few Committees would do this, many might remind you not to do this, maybe few would tell you to crack on.

Any committees doing this need sacking.

 

[NeilV]

No you shouldn't be doing this, and nor should they be being accepted. How are you managing to submit rounds that haven't had a marker?

It can be done through the HowDidIDo app.

 

[wjemather]

Which is a completely fair point, and hadn't actually thought about it that way until I read through this thread. Not quite sure what to do now. I'm trending downwards fairly quickly at the moment, and I'm going to look like a real bandit in the society if I carry on playing the way I have been.

There is no requirement for your marker to hold a handicap. Obviously won't be able to use apps alone, but a physical scorecard should be accepted by your committee and you should still be able to enter your score on the day via the touchscreen/hdid (depending on how it's configured at your club).

 

[NeilV]

There is no requirement for your marker to hold a handicap. Obviously won't be able to use apps, but a physical scorecard should be accepted by your committee and you should still be able to enter your score on the day via the touchscreen/hdid (depending on how it's configured at your club).

Good to know. Can you still submit a general play round electronically this way?
Edit: Already answered while I was typing. Thanks for the info. We have a touchscreen, so I'll check in the pro shop and see what I can do.

 

[Swango1980]

Any committees doing this need sacking.

You are correct, I do not disagree.

But, in the real world, these things happen sadly. We used to have a competition secretary who did not DQ players if they didn't sign their card, as he felt it was harsh. You could say he needs sacked, but at the end of the day it would be almost impossible for 2 reasons:

1. He was a lovely guy, and on the whole did a great job. I guess he was just too nice, and didn't want to upset a player by DQing a player. Due to what he had done for the club, most if not all members would not have been demanding his sacking either, even if they knew of his shortcomings
2. There was no one else willing to do the job. The handicap secretary before me probably did the job for 4 or 5 years longer than he wanted, but there was absolutely no one else interested in the position.

So, a handicap secretary might look at the mitigating circumstances that a member simply does not have a friend to sign for a score, and incorrectly allow them to submit scores unverified, especially as it shows their Index coming down. They may say they trust this golfer, and it is clear they are acting with integrity. If other members found out, they may even mostly agree (the we are not playing for a row of houses brigade), although maybe a few might ask the handicap sec to review his decision (although again, no one else may ever know at all anyway). So sacking the handicap sec is very very unlikely.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

It can be done through the HowDidIDo app.

Yes it "can be done" (can it, I don't know, but sure as hell shouldn't be), point is you're then meant to get a marker. Solo rounds do not count for handicap.