What constitutes a single digit handicapper post Nov 2nd?

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Canfordhacker

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So I have put together a spreadsheet so I could see what my handicap is going to look like. I have calculated 7 values to look at - Handicap Index, plus Course Handicaps off the Blues, Whites and Yellows, and Playing Handicaps of the 3 tees too.

Despite playing off 12 at the moment, I estimate if I have got things right that my Playing Handicap off the Yellows will be 9.3. Does that mean I have finally got there? :cool:

Or will people use Handicap Index to define that hallowed ground?

Thoughts?
 

Ethan

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In my opinion your Handicap Index is your handicap. That is the one which compares with other players from other clubs, and is the travelling handicap.

9.3 is a single figure handicap. Unless your course has a slope of <113, your Playing Handicap will be higher than your Handicap Index.
 

woofers

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Handicap Index.
Playing handicap can vary according to competition format.
I guess you have calculated your HI as 9.8 and taken 95% to arrive at 9.3?
 

Ethan

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Handicap Index.
Playing handicap can vary according to competition format.
I guess you have calculated your HI as 9.8 and taken 95% to arrive at 9.3?
Oops, I was talking about course handicap, but playing handicap is based on course handicap rather than handicap index, if the OP's HI is 9.3, the course handicap would be 10.0 if slope is 122, or 11.0 if slope is 133. Then in a singles with a 95% handicap allowance, back to 9.5 (slope 122) or 10.4 (slope 133) as a playing handicap.
 

IanM

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So I have put together a spreadsheet so I could see what my handicap is going to look like. I have calculated 7 values to look at - Handicap Index, plus Course Handicaps off the Blues, Whites and Yellows, and Playing Handicaps of the 3 tees too.

Despite playing off 12 at the moment, I estimate if I have got things right that my Playing Handicap off the Yellows will be 9.3. Does that mean I have finally got there? :cool:

Or will people use Handicap Index to define that hallowed ground?

Thoughts?
Surely it's Handicap Index as that is the constant thing before you arrive anywhere?

Bet I'm wrong though 🤣
 

woofers

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A mistake on my part as well. The OP has said his Playing Handicap off the yellows would be 9.3.
I have said Handicap Index could be 9.8 but that would actually be his Course Handicap. Without knowing the yellow tee slope rating we can’t calculate the OP‘s Handicap Index.
But in answer to the headline question I believe Handicap Index is the ‘like for like’ measure that should be used to compare abilities.
 

Orikoru

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I would go by the index. I have a feeling there are going to be a lot more single digit cappers than there were before.
 

Foxholer

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If it's the vanity of 'being a single figure player', feel free to use whatever metric helps you to achieves that. But vanity is one of the many aspects of a player's personality the game of Golf highlights. I knew, and often played with a highly qualified ex-CEO of a massive, if niche, IT company (who played off 6-7) who stated/repeated that playing a round of Golf with his equivalent was the best way to determine whether, and how, to do business with that company!

Having got there under the Congu system, I'm happy, given my current 'disabilities', to be competitive with my mid single figure playing companions, who have been using the WHS system (or pretty much before Slope values were available) for a number of years.
 

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Anyone thinking that the WHS is a fantastic method of addressing a problem that doesn't really exist?
I think it deals with the differences in handicap between clubs. We all know places where a X handicapper at one club is generally a better player than a X handicap at a club down the road. WHS will take care of this issue to a large extent by applying a more comparable structure to it.
 

harpo_72

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Hasn’t the WHS been operating in the States for years?
I remember playing a corporate event arranged by my company. We had a father and son with us and he wanted to be split up from his son so they could have at least 2 chances to win paddock tickets for race day. But they set the groups up, and there were guys with handicaps of 2 up to 10 and I hadn’t played for a bit so I was thinking that we would see some low better ball scores.
Just didn’t happen, I think I was playing off a 5 handicap which was where I felt I was. But a 7 birdie session on the back 9 got our guest and son in the paddock for Sunday. There were some mutterings when the results were in, your not supposed to win your own competition but I was in the paddock anyway and they gave the opportunity to the next best team as well... but they weren’t even close with around a 5 shot deficit ....
The point being if you think your single and that’s what you want, you may get embarrassed, so make sure you can deliver.
 

Ethan

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Hasn’t the WHS been operating in the States for years?
I remember playing a corporate event arranged by my company. We had a father and son with us and he wanted to be split up from his son so they could have at least 2 chances to win paddock tickets for race day. But they set the groups up, and there were guys with handicaps of 2 up to 10 and I hadn’t played for a bit so I was thinking that we would see some low better ball scores.
Just didn’t happen, I think I was playing off a 5 handicap which was where I felt I was. But a 7 birdie session on the back 9 got our guest and son in the paddock for Sunday. There were some mutterings when the results were in, your not supposed to win your own competition but I was in the paddock anyway and they gave the opportunity to the next best team as well... but they weren’t even close with around a 5 shot deficit ....
The point being if you think your single and that’s what you want, you may get embarrassed, so make sure you can deliver.
Handicap systems are basically just ways of interpreting statistics (golf scores). The CONGU system had an anchor and changes in handicap related to that, WHS uses a sort of moving average. Both are valid, but have different properties. CONGU is slower to respond, so things like ESRs are available to speed up change.

Both depend on the integrity of the person entering the data. WHS allows quite quick changes in handicap, so both sandbaggers and vanity handicaps are possible. If I understand the US system, pre-notification is not needed, so you can decide at the end whether to submit. Trump appears to use this technique a lot for his 2.9 handicap (generally considered to be a 10).

I've played quite a few times with Americans recording scores. More than a few times, they seem to adopt a relaxed attitude to counting scores, including mulligans, gimmes and apparent volume discounts for multiple shots, played 8, count 6. I also played with a man and his 18 year old son and after a few holes, I asked Dad what handicap the son was, and he said 'about a 2'. I laughed and said 'No, really, what is he'. Apparently Dad wasn't joking and went on to say the son was considering turning pro. The son was a 9 on a good day, and this wasn't a good day. I hope he was good at selling golf balls and taking green fees.
 

Blue in Munich

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On the contrary, i think it addresses issues that needed addressing!
Care to explain because I'm not seeing it. What I am seeing is a suggestion that every card needs to go in, so our friendly Tuesday night roll up with gimmes goes out the window (or we all put NR's in) and I'm looking forward to a community where a number of members who can't get their head round the fact that you can't declare a ball lost try to work out their handicap depending on what course & what tees they are playing off.

From the England Golf website;

https://www.englandgolf.org/article/world-handicap-system-whs/

Launch of universal handicapping system
When the new system is launched in 2020 it will be easy to use across cultures and will mean:

  • Golfers can compete or play with anyone on a fair and equal basis
  • The game has a single measure to represent golf ability worldwide
  • Players will have consistent handicaps within a global golfing community
The current handicap system addresses point one, and I don't see points 2 & 3 as a major issue to the vast majority of golfers.

Golf has probably got much bigger problems than addressing the fact that handicaps in the UK are different to those in the USA.
 

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Care to explain because I'm not seeing it. What I am seeing is a suggestion that every card needs to go in, so our friendly Tuesday night roll up with gimmes goes out the window (or we all put NR's in) and I'm looking forward to a community where a number of members who can't get their head round the fact that you can't declare a ball lost try to work out their handicap depending on what course & what tees they are playing off.
I don't see those problems at all. There is no requirement to put in all cards, but cards will need to be declared in advance if you plan to do so.

When it is up and running, you will just pitch up, and if it is a comp, check your playing handicap, play your game off the tees specified for the comp, usually the same ones as every other week, write down 18 scores, hand it in, clear off and wait for the committee to issue new handicaps that evening or next morning. After a little while you will get a feel for what the likely changes will be so won't even be surprised to often.

If you are a stats nerd, like me, you will have a spreadsheet with the last 20 scores, and little formulas running so you will know before you go out that you need to score a 82 to keep the handicap the same (because that is the score about to become the 21st oldest score and thus fall out of the last 20), and that any better will reduce your handicap, and any worse will increase it with a ceiling of 86 because that is the current 9th best score and thus will be promoted into the 8 if you don't shoot a better 8th best to improve upon it.
 
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harpo_72

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I don't see those problems at all. There is no requirement to put in all cards, but cards will need to be declared in advance if you plan to do so.

When it is up and running, you will just pitch up, and if it is a comp, check your playing handicap, play your game off the tees specified for the comp, usually the same ones as every other week, write down 18 scores, hand it in, clear off and wait for the committee to issue new handicaps that evening or next morning. After a little while you will get a feel for what the likely changes will be so won't even be surprised to often.

If you are a stats nerd, like me, you will have a spreadsheet with the last 20 scores, and little formulas running so you will know before you go out that you need to score a 82 to keep the handicap the same (because that is the score about to become the 21st oldest score and thus fall out of the last 20), and that any better will reduce your handicap, and any worse will increase it with a ceiling of 86 because that is the current 9th best score and thus will be promoted into the 8 if you don't shoot a better 8th best to improve upon it.
Totally agree... but the stats stuff might not be helping if your on the tee thinking I need to shoot x ... get a few holes under your belt and just work out what game your playing and play it. The scoring will be better :) .
I really don’t understand vanity handicaps , I know there are bragging rights etc but when it comes to crunch time you get found out. Sand bagging, is a different matter, this is an intention to cheat, I get the “ pull out of a competition because the swing is out of kilter” but chucking a couple of deliberate double bogeys is unacceptable.. but I dunno how this system prevents that in the end people find a way to achieve their ambitions
 

Ethan

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Totally agree... but the stats stuff might not be helping if your on the tee thinking I need to shoot x ... get a few holes under your belt and just work out what game your playing and play it. The scoring will be better :) .
I really don’t understand vanity handicaps , I know there are bragging rights etc but when it comes to crunch time you get found out. Sand bagging, is a different matter, this is an intention to cheat, I get the “ pull out of a competition because the swing is out of kilter” but chucking a couple of deliberate double bogeys is unacceptable.. but I dunno how this system prevents that in the end people find a way to achieve their ambitions
I think WHS does demand a slightly different mentality. Under CONGU if you had played 15 holes and had 26 points, you are very likely not going to get into the buffer, so whats the difference between 28 points and 33, right? Under WHS, they might be a difference, because your handicap will be determined by a few scores better than handicap but also a few that are worse, and you may still be able to make small improvements with scores that do not reach the old buffer zone.

I like to know where i am in terms of score, so knowing what score is about to expire and what score will be needed to improve the handicap are important to me and might keep me chasing that 33 point score one day when I would have otherwise stopped caring.

I agree vanity handicaps only hurt the player. Sandbagging seems to be a thing for big pro-ams and member-guests, as they call them in US clubs. Some players seems to cultivate a handicap for those. That is cheating.
 
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Canfordhacker

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If you are a stats nerd, like me, you will have a spreadsheet with the last 20 scores, and little formulas running so you will know before you go out that you need to score a 82 to keep the handicap the same (because that is the score about to become the 21st oldest score and thus fall out of the last 20), and that any better will reduce your handicap, and any worse will increase it with a ceiling of 86 because that is the current 9th best score and thus will be promoted into the 8 if you don't shoot a better 8th best to improve upon it.
Ha ha - this is me and is exactly the sheet I was creating.

Not sure where the vanity stuff comes from. I am using single digits as a target to drive me to improve. My original question was based around where people considered the target to have shifted to. For me it will be index, and that will be what I am striving for. If I am good enough to get there I will set another target.

Also, I get the stuff about playing without knowing the score or implication - but the stats nerd in me just doesn't allow for that!
 
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