bobmac
Major Champion
Are you swinging in to out now?
Virtuocity - stack and tilt swing.................
- Thread starter JustOne
- Start date
virtuocity
Tour Winner
Don't know. You'll be able to tell me when / if you watch my videos.
virtuocity
Tour Winner
“I am virtuocity and I’m a Stack and Tilterâ€. Doesn’t that sound like a phrase of guilt; one which would be offered to a group of strangers sat in a big circle in the local church hall during a group therapy session?
Well, this swing pattern is, by many, seen as something to be guilty about, a dirty phrase, cultish, defensive and something which drives a responsibility in others to correct it.
Even my coach, Neil Colquhoun (approved Stack and Tilt instructor) said, “I don’t tend to tell people that what I teach is S&T. I had someone I was teaching for a long time and played off scratch who was playing one day and a partner had observed his swing and told him that he was using S&T. The pupil asked Neil, “Have you been teaching me Stack and Tilt?†to which he agreed that he had. I was almost surprised to hear that the pupil then said, “I don’t care, I’m playing so well I’m not going to changeâ€.
So why the shroud, the demi-denial of how one earns a living?
Well I think Messieurs Bennett and Plummer (co-creators of S&T) have a lot to do with this. Well I say a lot- I mean nearly everything to do with this. Check out of some of these self-penned phrases:
‘The Hottest Swings on Tour’
‘Swing like the Pros in no time!’
‘The swing that is remaking golf’
In addition to these, Mike and Andy have devoted a huge amount of time to telling everyone in the world of golf that they are wrong, their teachers and fathers were wrong and more profoundly that they are right. Of course, the harshness of their message was not fully one of provocation but one of pure and utter passion and belief in the effectiveness of their ‘design’. I think it is fair to concede though that knowing how touchy the golfing fraternity is, Andy and Mike were quite aware of how much publicity they would gain from their accusatory approach.
Neil Colquhoun stated, “I have spent a lot of time with Mike and Andy and I know they regret a lot of what has happened (with regards to their marketing strategy)…â€
So with the tsunami of controversial coverage, Stack and Tilt naturally received a forceful backlash from pros, journalists and a huge portion of the golfing population leaving S&T instructors and followers to make a choice:
a) Learn to keep schtum about S&T
b) Defend S&T at all costs
You might have noticed the latter approach in some S&T players you know. Chances are, you’ve come across more followers of S&T (or elements of it) than you’ve actually realised.
If this was a longer ‘piece’ I would now go on to discuss the pros and cons of Stack and Tilt, but I’m not here to do that.
My goal for writing this is to try to get people thinking about why S&T is such a contentious and prickly topic of golf discussion. What about Joe Dante’s “Four Magic Moves†book where an immediate wrist-cock is demanded by the author to start the most efficient and effective swing possible (amongst other controversial swing mechanics)?
For a start, Joe Dante didn’t have a flashy website, an expensive training programme and DVDs marketed for $175.
My point? (Thank goodness, we've got there at last).
I guess I just want you to be a bit self-critical for a minute. I want you to think about what you think about S&T but more importantly why you think what you do. Is it because you have tried it, been taught it, played it and decided it wasn't for you? Or is it because you have bought in to the (justified) backlash to Bennett and Plummer’s marketing strategy which can be found in the mass majority of anti-S&T magazine articles, chats with your local pro and (dare I say it?) forum posts?
Neil told me about a student he had who was being teased about the way his feet were positioned at address (S&T teaches students to keep their feet pointed outwards to aid hip rotation). One of his friends jested, "What are you doing Callum?!". He replied, "Playing good golf".
I liked this story. Callum didn't fit in to the standard mould of either hiding the fact that he adopted a controversial approach or staunchly defending his swing pattern. He just did what made him play better.
I know exactly what he means.
Well, this swing pattern is, by many, seen as something to be guilty about, a dirty phrase, cultish, defensive and something which drives a responsibility in others to correct it.
Even my coach, Neil Colquhoun (approved Stack and Tilt instructor) said, “I don’t tend to tell people that what I teach is S&T. I had someone I was teaching for a long time and played off scratch who was playing one day and a partner had observed his swing and told him that he was using S&T. The pupil asked Neil, “Have you been teaching me Stack and Tilt?†to which he agreed that he had. I was almost surprised to hear that the pupil then said, “I don’t care, I’m playing so well I’m not going to changeâ€.
So why the shroud, the demi-denial of how one earns a living?
Well I think Messieurs Bennett and Plummer (co-creators of S&T) have a lot to do with this. Well I say a lot- I mean nearly everything to do with this. Check out of some of these self-penned phrases:
‘The Hottest Swings on Tour’
‘Swing like the Pros in no time!’
‘The swing that is remaking golf’
In addition to these, Mike and Andy have devoted a huge amount of time to telling everyone in the world of golf that they are wrong, their teachers and fathers were wrong and more profoundly that they are right. Of course, the harshness of their message was not fully one of provocation but one of pure and utter passion and belief in the effectiveness of their ‘design’. I think it is fair to concede though that knowing how touchy the golfing fraternity is, Andy and Mike were quite aware of how much publicity they would gain from their accusatory approach.
Neil Colquhoun stated, “I have spent a lot of time with Mike and Andy and I know they regret a lot of what has happened (with regards to their marketing strategy)…â€
So with the tsunami of controversial coverage, Stack and Tilt naturally received a forceful backlash from pros, journalists and a huge portion of the golfing population leaving S&T instructors and followers to make a choice:
a) Learn to keep schtum about S&T
b) Defend S&T at all costs
You might have noticed the latter approach in some S&T players you know. Chances are, you’ve come across more followers of S&T (or elements of it) than you’ve actually realised.
If this was a longer ‘piece’ I would now go on to discuss the pros and cons of Stack and Tilt, but I’m not here to do that.
My goal for writing this is to try to get people thinking about why S&T is such a contentious and prickly topic of golf discussion. What about Joe Dante’s “Four Magic Moves†book where an immediate wrist-cock is demanded by the author to start the most efficient and effective swing possible (amongst other controversial swing mechanics)?
For a start, Joe Dante didn’t have a flashy website, an expensive training programme and DVDs marketed for $175.
My point? (Thank goodness, we've got there at last).
I guess I just want you to be a bit self-critical for a minute. I want you to think about what you think about S&T but more importantly why you think what you do. Is it because you have tried it, been taught it, played it and decided it wasn't for you? Or is it because you have bought in to the (justified) backlash to Bennett and Plummer’s marketing strategy which can be found in the mass majority of anti-S&T magazine articles, chats with your local pro and (dare I say it?) forum posts?
Neil told me about a student he had who was being teased about the way his feet were positioned at address (S&T teaches students to keep their feet pointed outwards to aid hip rotation). One of his friends jested, "What are you doing Callum?!". He replied, "Playing good golf".
I liked this story. Callum didn't fit in to the standard mould of either hiding the fact that he adopted a controversial approach or staunchly defending his swing pattern. He just did what made him play better.
I know exactly what he means.
G1BB0
Money List Winner
excellent post. I think the fact its a 'branded' swing and the claims by Bennett & Plummer alongside their slightly smug attitutde.
I am embarking on it or elements at least. Will it work who knows but my shonky swing has got to change. Cue a session with JustOne and possible a lesson or 2 with a certain Mr Quirke in the not too distant future.
I believe it can help me get to a level where I can play consitant golf and most of all enjoy it.
Keep it up :thup:
I am embarking on it or elements at least. Will it work who knows but my shonky swing has got to change. Cue a session with JustOne and possible a lesson or 2 with a certain Mr Quirke in the not too distant future.
I believe it can help me get to a level where I can play consitant golf and most of all enjoy it.
Keep it up :thup:
virtuocity
Tour Winner
Alas, here is my write up from my 3 hour lesson on Friday.
It took place at Merchants Golf Club in Edinburgh- a 1.5 hour drive from me. The course was pretty, my coach (Neil Colquhoun) was amazing and the weather was still and warm. PERFECT. Easily my best golfing day ever so far.
A lot of you have commented that 3 hours is too long for a lesson. However, this was my first time with a Stack and Tilt instructor and I have loads of questions to ask, loads of swing flaws to undo and loads to learn.
I doubt I'd go for 3 hours again as we spent so much time undoing my self-taught rubbishness as well as addressing other things I wasn't aware of.
The first video is a couple of clips where Neil has asked me to show him what I've learned so far since I started playing last year. I thought I had a big backswing, but NEVER thought it was as LONG as this!!!!! On a more serious note, Neil was concerned about the amount of stress I was putting on my lower back as a result of poor impact position. Check it out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh1GCBuV8oM
To be fair, Neil was very kind about my existing swing. Despite me throwing my arms so far behind me (bless him, he said I was John Daly-esque, and not because of my big belly), he said I managed to get myself back into a good position coming up to impact, but obviously struggled AT and THROUGH impact.
At this point, we agreed to spend our time on:
1. Eradicating my chicken wing
2. Getting my weight through the ball (read as: prevent future back pain)
3. Stop hitting my driver 80 yards up in the air and 80 yards right
First off was a brilliant drill Neil created just for me at the practice nets.
Step 1- Keep the flying wedge, short backswing, short follow through, keep the arms straight
Step 2- As above, introduce some wrist cock, extend leading leg on follow through
Step 3- As above, get hips through and get them tucked
From the video below I hope you can see some progress. I still have a huge amount of work to go on this. Bear in mind that I am a habitual slicer and chicken winger and have NEVER had a proper follow through.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9McN1aF_6g
Following a cup of tea and some video analysis (and 1000 questions about stack and tilt from me) we went back to the nets and course to look at the driver.
I have been a bit depressed (as James AKA Justone) about my driver. Everyone talks about the importance of the short game, which I totally agree with, but I'm more of the thinking that I want to get my driver working first to get me into a position where my short game could be a hole maker or breaker.
As I said above, I was skying and slicing my drives horrifically. Neil completely changed my set up and was determined to prove that I could move the ball from right to left). As it turned out, he was right! Last night's visit to the range proved that!!!
Here's a little vid of a drill he got me to do. Basically, with minimal wrist-cock and backswing, he wanted to show me that I didn't need to be scared of losing my ball high and right. My chicken wing and follow through is MUCH better than previous, but still got a lot of work ahead of me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rzw7DooSf8o
So, overall an AMAZING experience and looking forward to the next month of hard work embedding in these new changes. I posted recently that I had suffered from a back/shoulder trapped nerve after slamming my club into hard sand. After 50 balls at the range last night, I resorted back to my old swing (just for old time's sake!) and my pain immediately came back!!!
So, I trust my coach (a huge positive if you ask me!) and have a much more efficient, easy and pain-free swing.
Sloooooowwwly getting there folks!
It took place at Merchants Golf Club in Edinburgh- a 1.5 hour drive from me. The course was pretty, my coach (Neil Colquhoun) was amazing and the weather was still and warm. PERFECT. Easily my best golfing day ever so far.
A lot of you have commented that 3 hours is too long for a lesson. However, this was my first time with a Stack and Tilt instructor and I have loads of questions to ask, loads of swing flaws to undo and loads to learn.
I doubt I'd go for 3 hours again as we spent so much time undoing my self-taught rubbishness as well as addressing other things I wasn't aware of.
The first video is a couple of clips where Neil has asked me to show him what I've learned so far since I started playing last year. I thought I had a big backswing, but NEVER thought it was as LONG as this!!!!! On a more serious note, Neil was concerned about the amount of stress I was putting on my lower back as a result of poor impact position. Check it out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh1GCBuV8oM
To be fair, Neil was very kind about my existing swing. Despite me throwing my arms so far behind me (bless him, he said I was John Daly-esque, and not because of my big belly), he said I managed to get myself back into a good position coming up to impact, but obviously struggled AT and THROUGH impact.
At this point, we agreed to spend our time on:
1. Eradicating my chicken wing
2. Getting my weight through the ball (read as: prevent future back pain)
3. Stop hitting my driver 80 yards up in the air and 80 yards right
First off was a brilliant drill Neil created just for me at the practice nets.
Step 1- Keep the flying wedge, short backswing, short follow through, keep the arms straight
Step 2- As above, introduce some wrist cock, extend leading leg on follow through
Step 3- As above, get hips through and get them tucked
From the video below I hope you can see some progress. I still have a huge amount of work to go on this. Bear in mind that I am a habitual slicer and chicken winger and have NEVER had a proper follow through.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9McN1aF_6g
Following a cup of tea and some video analysis (and 1000 questions about stack and tilt from me) we went back to the nets and course to look at the driver.
I have been a bit depressed (as James AKA Justone) about my driver. Everyone talks about the importance of the short game, which I totally agree with, but I'm more of the thinking that I want to get my driver working first to get me into a position where my short game could be a hole maker or breaker.
As I said above, I was skying and slicing my drives horrifically. Neil completely changed my set up and was determined to prove that I could move the ball from right to left). As it turned out, he was right! Last night's visit to the range proved that!!!
Here's a little vid of a drill he got me to do. Basically, with minimal wrist-cock and backswing, he wanted to show me that I didn't need to be scared of losing my ball high and right. My chicken wing and follow through is MUCH better than previous, but still got a lot of work ahead of me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rzw7DooSf8o
So, overall an AMAZING experience and looking forward to the next month of hard work embedding in these new changes. I posted recently that I had suffered from a back/shoulder trapped nerve after slamming my club into hard sand. After 50 balls at the range last night, I resorted back to my old swing (just for old time's sake!) and my pain immediately came back!!!
So, I trust my coach (a huge positive if you ask me!) and have a much more efficient, easy and pain-free swing.
Sloooooowwwly getting there folks!
Wolfman
Tour Rookie
I have looked and searched for basic free S & T instruction and didnt see much at all
Maybe Justone and yourself could give us some basic set up pointers so we could at least try it before dismissing it ?
Maybe Justone and yourself could give us some basic set up pointers so we could at least try it before dismissing it ?
virtuocity
Tour Winner
Go for both. I would if I wasn't 100s of miles away.
G1BB0
Money List Winner
just watching the vid (again) and started the book again. I know when I started using it last year I had a lesson and the pro gave me a simple drill using a half backswing... I was actually hitting further than my full normal swing!
This is what convinced to to carry on with it.
I would have used Sam/James already if it wasnt for work/cash and time as neither is right on my doorstep
This is what convinced to to carry on with it.
I would have used Sam/James already if it wasnt for work/cash and time as neither is right on my doorstep
scratch
Q-School Graduate
Just watched your swing clips virtuocity, to be honest with all that head movement I think you are doing really well just to make contact with the ball!
G1BB0
Money List Winner
holy overswing batman!!!!!!!!!!!! that is bigger than Daly's lol
love the 3 drills, much more controlled. Like all things it will take time but fair play to you for being prepared to put the time and effort in. Keep us posted with any updates.
love the 3 drills, much more controlled. Like all things it will take time but fair play to you for being prepared to put the time and effort in. Keep us posted with any updates.
virtuocity
Tour Winner
I hope you don't mean 20 range balls here
S&T success requires a commitment (just like any other swing) over a long time.
But if you're just looking to increase your knowledge of the pattern, check these out (in order):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRi1pO4Um88
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Jr1hUhILyM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wC_Ng-pjJNA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss3dIo0bC6Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SYW1DHMAuQ
virtuocity
Tour Winner
I'd agree with you on the basis of the first video, but less so on the others.
G1BB0
Money List Winner
head is much more stable in the 'after' vids.
How much practice does he reckon it will take before you can take it to the course or is that a how longs a piece of string question?
On the fuller swing in the 3 drills how has your shot shape/ball flight been and is the distance better than your pre lesson shots?
(just curious thats all)
How much practice does he reckon it will take before you can take it to the course or is that a how longs a piece of string question?
On the fuller swing in the 3 drills how has your shot shape/ball flight been and is the distance better than your pre lesson shots?
(just curious thats all)
virtuocity
Tour Winner
G1BB0- I had a wee chat with my coach about whether my game would suffer before getting better as a result of these stark changes.
He believed that I have the ability (lol) to implement these changes with little effect to my game. If you think about the amount of fairways I was missing and fat/duff iron shots I was making during a round, then I'm inclined to believe him.
He also said that he's played many a round of golf just using the tiny backswing drill!
You ask about distance. Not trying to squirm out of answering your question but quality of strike along with concentrating on straighter arms (chicken wing fault) and follow through are my highest priorities.
However, I did take my 7 iron to the range on Saturday evening. My ball striking was much improved and much more consistent. As for distance, I used to get around 140 yards and now (with what feels like a half swing!) I'm achieving about 145-160 yards. I don't know if that's 'good' or not, but like I said; I'm more interested in the quality of strike.
As for shot shape, my old shape was generally a push or slice. Nothing too damaging though. My irons were the best part of my game. The main fault with the iron swing was the amount of fat shots I hit, digging up fairways across Scotland!!!
After my first practice, I can still say that I am still pushing the ball a lot but when I allow myself to trust the swing changes (i.e. tell myself that by keeping my arms straight and following through that my shot will rocket) then the ball draws very softly (5-10 yards). It's a pretty sight.
He believed that I have the ability (lol) to implement these changes with little effect to my game. If you think about the amount of fairways I was missing and fat/duff iron shots I was making during a round, then I'm inclined to believe him.
He also said that he's played many a round of golf just using the tiny backswing drill!
You ask about distance. Not trying to squirm out of answering your question but quality of strike along with concentrating on straighter arms (chicken wing fault) and follow through are my highest priorities.
However, I did take my 7 iron to the range on Saturday evening. My ball striking was much improved and much more consistent. As for distance, I used to get around 140 yards and now (with what feels like a half swing!) I'm achieving about 145-160 yards. I don't know if that's 'good' or not, but like I said; I'm more interested in the quality of strike.
As for shot shape, my old shape was generally a push or slice. Nothing too damaging though. My irons were the best part of my game. The main fault with the iron swing was the amount of fat shots I hit, digging up fairways across Scotland!!!
After my first practice, I can still say that I am still pushing the ball a lot but when I allow myself to trust the swing changes (i.e. tell myself that by keeping my arms straight and following through that my shot will rocket) then the ball draws very softly (5-10 yards). It's a pretty sight.
G1BB0
Money List Winner
sounds similar to what I was getting last year, I went to the course after the lesson and was nailing it and getting 10-20 yds with what felt like a half swing so I can relate to what you are saying.
Keep it up and most of all enjoy it
Keep it up and most of all enjoy it
virtuocity
Tour Winner
I can answer that question now Gibster. Took to my home course and shot my best score round it (88 gross, par 64). Biggest difference was that my drives are now landing in safe areas.
I have zero short game, which I'm not too bothered about at this stage to be honest. I would estimate that if I put in as much effort into my chips and putts as I have (and will be) into my swing then I would reduce my score by AT LEAST 10 strokes per round.
big_russ
Challenge Tour Pro
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL58C812F5D67DD638
Have a look here. My coach and also an authorized S&T instructor
DCB
Well-known member
Good write up on your lesson Virtuocity. Neil's a good coach and I'm sure he'll get you there if you put the work in.
virtuocity
Tour Winner
Some pics from my recent lesson, showing before and after.
JustOne
Ryder Cup Winner
Nice to see some progress mate.
Would like to see you stop chasing the ball with your right wrist and learn to keep the left one flatter by keeping the left arm straighter and extended through impact (shoulders keep turning pulling the grip/arms round).. probably the flying wedge drill would be the answer....
[video=youtube;F9c57NhZFl8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9c57NhZFl8[/video]
Would like to see you stop chasing the ball with your right wrist and learn to keep the left one flatter by keeping the left arm straighter and extended through impact (shoulders keep turning pulling the grip/arms round).. probably the flying wedge drill would be the answer....
[video=youtube;F9c57NhZFl8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9c57NhZFl8[/video]
