The Footie Thread

[PaulMdj]

Week in, week out we have people moaning about VAR or the Refs being crap, yes me included, but we we never acknowledge that they both get 95%+ of the decisions correct.

No system or person will ever be 100%, but still we moan.

How about the Clubs start addressing some of the issues themselves? They all try to con and cheat the Officials in every game.

Blaming VAR & Officials every time is not helping.

 

[clubchamp98]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2008668184182964699

Peps leaving isn’t he ?
So won’t be working with him very long !

 

[Orikoru]

Regarding refs, the PL will be sending 3 refs (and their teams I imagine) to the World Cup, one more than usual. Someone out there thinks they are okay, or at least better than the rest.

I mean, there's going to be a lot more games than usual so more refs makes sense.

 

[Swango1980]

Regarding refs, the PL will be sending 3 refs (and their teams I imagine) to the World Cup, one more than usual. Someone out there thinks they are okay, or at least better than the rest.

They are. Most English fans live in a bubble, and because they watch PL all the time, and don't agree with many decisions, they label English refs as appauling compared to the rest. I can guarantee fans of other European leagues have the same frustrations with their officials.

You'd expect the best officials to be in the biggest leagues as well, as much more money is invested into their training.

 

[Aztecs27]

The issue is 99% of the time there isn’t any issues

Doesn’t matter what system is in place there will still be moans

It’s part of the sport

There will always be human interaction and when a human is involved it will never be perfect

Respectfully disagree with this. if there weren't issues 99% of the time, there wouldn't be weekly apologies and statements from PGMOL due to incorrect decisions.

Rugby has similar "human interaction" and has VAR - there are very little issue with it. It's used consistently and correctly.

As has been noted there is VAR controversy EVERY.SINGLE.WEEK. in football, because our referees and their assistants are mostly incompetent.

The technology is fine - but it's implemented wrong...and until this changes, we're just going to get bad decisions and multiple apologies on a weekly basis.

 

[Aztecs27]

I'm amused when pundits mention how many managers Utd have had since Fergie left, as if we are a club like Watford (ironically, many of the same people are the ones screaming for Utd to sack the manager, and criticise them when they stay on longer than they think they should).

So, I tried to put together a list of permanent managers all PL clubs have had since Fergie left, as a comparison. Only because apert from Moyes and Amorim (who still got full years), I've always felt Utd have stuck by managers for quite a long time, even when things are poor. And fans have given managers a lot of time as well. The list includes Watford (just for a laugh), and I also put the total managers, including caretakers, in brackets:

1. Watford 21 (23)
2. Forest 16 (19)
3. Sunderland 14 (24)
4. Leeds 14 (16)
5. Chelsea 11 (14)
6. Fulham 9 (10)
7. Everton 9 (16)
8. Spurs 9 (11)
9. Palace 9 (13)
10. Wolves 9 (9)
11. Villa 8 (8)
12. West Ham 8 (8)
13. Brentford 7 (8)
14. Brighton 7 (8)
15. Man Utd 6 (11)
16. Newcastle 6 (8)
17. Bournemouth 5 (5)
18. Arsenal 3 (4)
19. Liverpool 3 (3)
20. Burnley 3 (4)
21. Man City 2 (3)

Given the absolute mess Man Utd have been in for a decade, and the constant media and fan scrutiny, I think they have done remarkably well to have only had 6 permanent managers (soon to be 7). They have been guilty of many things, but being trigger happy with managers is surely not one of them, if you compare the most other clubs. Not surprised to see Liverpool and City near bottom of the list, due to successful years. Was surprised to see Burnley at bottom of the list, all down to fact Dyche was they manager for a decade, and started just before Ferguson retired.

Note, in some cases I had to make assumptions on who was actually a caretaker manager, based on length of stay. Some of those may actually have been full time managers but just got sacked ridiciulously quickly.

What a time to be alive.

Most of these changes came when Fawaz still owned the club...It doesn't seem it to those outside of the club, but Marinakis has actually steadied the ship. This season's been a bit weird of course - but in most cases, he's given the outgoing managers more of a chance than he should have done - he's not quite as trigger happy as some make out.

But yea, those years under Fawaz were absolutely abysmal haha. some dark, dark times.

 

[clubchamp98]

It’s the game changing decisions that get me.
When the ref makes the wrong call and VAR just backs them up, or can’t intervene because of their own stupid rules.
They get 95% correct but the one they get wrong costs you the game

Then apologies are given later ( City red card and others) that does the team on the day no favours
It’s been happening for to long.
But humans make mistakes???
So does semi auto offside imo (see Wirtz goal can’t belive that was given)

 

[Aztecs27]

It’s the game changing decisions that get me.
When the ref makes the wrong call and VAR just backs them up, or can’t intervene because of their own stupid rules.
They get 95% correct but the one they get wrong costs you the game

Then apologies are given later ( City red card and others) that does the team on the day no favours
It’s been happening for to long.
But humans make mistakes???
So does semi auto offside imo (see Wirtz goal can’t belive that was given)

Exactly this!

Get rid of VAR altogether except for any off the ball incidents for foul play and keep goal line technology.

Let the Lino and Ref decide whether someone is offside or not. Some offside goals will be given and some onside goals not given, but this was always the way and we accepted it and moved on with our lives. Instead of waiting for someone in a room to spend 10 minutes working out whether to give a goal or not.

 

[Orikoru]

Respectfully disagree with this. if there weren't issues 99% of the time, there wouldn't be weekly apologies and statements from PGMOL due to incorrect decisions.

Rugby has similar "human interaction" and has VAR - there are very little issue with it. It's used consistently and correctly.

As has been noted there is VAR controversy EVERY.SINGLE.WEEK. in football, because our referees and their assistants are mostly incompetent.

The technology is fine - but it's implemented wrong...and until this changes, we're just going to get bad decisions and multiple apologies on a weekly basis.

Agreed. The tool is there to be used, and would be fine if used properly - and sparingly. They jumped the shark, decided 'we've spent enough money on this thing, we must get enough use out of it' and ruined the game.

 

[Don Barzini]

When the ref makes the wrong call and VAR just backs them up, or can’t intervene because of their own stupid rules.

This is the big one for me. "VAR can't intervene". The stupidest of the self-imposed rules. Balls to common sense - as long as our own restrictive rules are in place.

That and the time it takes. Jeez. We live in a time now where the culture of VAR seems to be "Right, what minscule and microscopic reason can we find to intervene here? Let's spend an inordinate amount of time just making sure." Rather than "Nah, nothing too clear and obvious there. All good. Carry on."

 

[Bunkermagnet]

There is one big difference between football and rugby. Both sports have errors made, refs in both sports miss things, VAR/TMO make mistakes and miss things BUT in rugby the ref is respected, regardless of whether he got something right, missed something or got something wrong. Football has for too long has targeted refs for everything.Whether it’s players swarming round refs, arguing with them, calling for a card or VAR, or managers ranting after a game and something THEY felt was wrong. Respect has to be given to the ref, and saying they don’t deserve that because of mistakes made won’t help them, the players, managers or fans.

 

[irip]

VAR was introduced as taking out the human error but in my opinion the officials in the old system got just as many decisions right then as they do now (or wrong depending on your take).
In my opinion all it has done is take away the joy of knowing if your team scoring will count.

The problem is that it is still used to make decisions that are opinion not factual.

One ref may think a foul is a yellow card another may think the same foul is a red card.

I would like it kept but only for factual decisions

 

[Tashyboy]

Back in the old days, when we watched games on MOTD. WE saw highlights of the game. We hardly saw any complaints on a weekly basis re the officials. Now with the advent of digital tv we can put the game literally under a microscope and freeze frame a moment in time. That moment being Offside or not. Re offside, we have gone from an original line to a line being thicker, to now having a 5cm tolerance line. seriously. And that’s in Premier league football. Yet when it comes to Carabao and some FA cup games where stadiums don’t have VAR. An officials decision means he raises the flag instantly instead of letting it go and letting VAR make a decision x number of minutes later. And exactly how is that improving the game.
VAR under its present guise promotes discussion verging on arguments re the decisions on a weekly basis. That is not helped by cheating players and rose tinted fans. The skill of players is being overshadowed by a system that as Paul says is 95% right but should be nearer 100%. That 5% is what is costing teams results, be it allowed goals, disallowed goals, penalties or no penalties, offside or not offside, dangerous or non dangerous play. And worst of all a lack of consistency.

 

[PaulMdj]

Exactly this!

Get rid of VAR altogether except for any off the ball incidents for foul play and keep goal line technology.

Let the Lino and Ref decide whether someone is offside or not. Some offside goals will be given and some onside goals not given, but this was always the way and we accepted it and moved on with our lives. Instead of waiting for someone in a room to spend 10 minutes working out whether to give a goal or not.

No we didn’t, people still talk about these decisions years/decades later:

1966 WC Final - Ball over the line:
1986 Maradona Handball

Lampard “No goal” v Germany.

Those are national level, I could mention Everton games, good and bad decisions (ask Bolton fans)

The difference in the past was that we HAD to accept it, now we don’t.

 

[road2ruin]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2008668184182964699

I like Semenyo and would have liked him at United. Massive case of sour grapes however I can't help but feel he's made the wrong choice with this move, in 12/18 months he could easily find himself with the likes of Trafford, Savinho et al on the bench and in terms of his career might well have been better going to United, Liverpool etc where he'd walk into the first team.

 

[PaulMdj]

One other point on VAR, here we are again discussing it and saying how bad it is, but yet last nights game proved it works.

Whether we like those decisions or not, both were correct.

Only a minority have mentioned this.

 

[Swango1980]

There is one big difference between football and rugby. Both sports have errors made, refs in both sports miss things, VAR/TMO make mistakes and miss things BUT in rugby the ref is respected, regardless of whether he got something right, missed something or got something wrong. Football has for too long has targeted refs for everything.Whether it’s players swarming round refs, arguing with them, calling for a card or VAR, or managers ranting after a game and something THEY felt was wrong. Respect has to be given to the ref, and saying they don’t deserve that because of mistakes made won’t help them, the players, managers or fans.

Fans do not respect referees. Even on here, most of us, some in particular, are quick to absolutely slate the ability of a referee based on a decision they do not like (even though if any of us were to referee the professional game, assuming we were fit enough physically, we'd be horrendous when replays and stills can be used to review our decisions). To the point referee decisions are often discussed more than the countless errors the players and managers made throughout the game. And this is a forum with rules. We all have heard the language used to describe referees when there are no rules on how that criticism is articulated.

Footballers are also football fans. And long before they became professional footballers, they'd have grown up with football fans (parents, friends, etc) who find it completely normal to berate a referee. Who hear pundits on every week slag off referees. Where programs are dedicated to refs (Ref Watch), where really it is used to slag off some of the biggest mistakes, and no one really cares when the resident referee backs any of the decisions made.

Therefore, no chance on Earth footballers, in general, will ever react to a decison they do not agree with by saying "I don't agree sir, but it was a jolly tough decision to make, so I respect you could have had a perfectly logical different viewpoint".

Rugby is different for many reasons (rugby fans could explain better, I am not). Notably, it has nowhere near the exposure as football, and focusing on ref decisions in the media is really not going to gain much traction. I'd imagine the profile of rugby players and fans is different? Football tends to have more working class fans , who many can, let's just say, be more colourful in the way they express their opinions. In N Ireland (my own experience, not sure what it is like in rest of UK), it was really only Grammar Schools where it was demanded students played rugby as their main sport (Keith Gillespie had to leave my school early, because they did not want him to play football, despite playing for the Man Utd youth). Besides, when rugby players are frustrated, they can legally let off some frustration by getting physically agressive during play. Footballers can't really do the same thing, more so these days, and so that frustration is more likely to reveal itself as whinging and petulance. And because less and less contact is allowed in football as time goes on, whinging for the slightest of contact is rewarded more and more in the long run, because it can help influence the referees next decision on something pretty trivial.

No chance society will change for the benefit of professional referees/ So if they want to change the respct to referees by footballers and managers, they need to think of some drastic methods to do it. Not impossible, but of course there will be backlash when they are punished for being critical, and fans and pundits back the player because the decision was clearly wrong, thus they will be sympathetic towards the players reaction. It is why I think having referee microphones will help. Short term, we may hear some nasty things, that will need to be punished. But hopefully long term, players will realise they can be heard, and become more and more embarassed with the shame of screaming like an angry toldler, and all the discussion that follows in the week(s) after.

 

[Aztecs27]

No we didn’t, people still talk about these decisions years/decades later:

1966 WC Final - Ball over the line:
1986 Maradona Handball

Lampard “No goal” v Germany.

Those are national level, I could mention Everton games, good and bad decisions (ask Bolton fans)

The difference in the past was that we HAD to accept it, now we don’t.

Well, we do....because they're STILL getting it wrong!

But I see your point.

 

[PaulMdj]

Well, we do....because they're STILL getting it wrong!

But I see your point.

Or getting it right…last night.

 

[Aztecs27]

One other point on VAR, here we are again discussing it and saying how bad it is, but yet last nights game proved it works.

Whether we like those decisions or not, both were correct.

Only a minority have mentioned this.

Their disallowed goal, for sure by the letter of the law, but I'd argue that our penalty shout was one of those that might be given or might not be depending on the referee and the teams playing.

VAR isn't 100% incorrect, but there are more errors than there should be, given the technology they have at their disposal.