The Footie Thread

[Beezerk]

We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one, nothing can replace actually being there, yes, you may get close ups and endless replays of what the TV Companies decide they want you to see, but they won’t show the off the ball running and effort, boring stuff by some players which is often missed and unappreciatted by us telly clappers.

Let's be absolutely honest here, who the heck watches what's going on off the ball at a football match? Most people have their eyes glued to the ball and maybe sometimes glimpse away if something catches their eye, otherwise it's following play and not seeing if player x has dropped deep to sweep or player y has dropped the nut on someone ?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

They also miss out on watching the action closely, unless they watch the fane on TV after. As a fan of a big club, we are lucky enough to ge able to watch virtually every game live on TV. If you were talking about supporting Lincoln City, then I'd accept your point. However, it is virtually redundant when talking about United.

Watching at the ground has benefits in respect of seeing what the players do when the camera isn’t on them but as you say with most games now being broadcast one way or the other then most fans whether they be ones who fortunately can go to game or the ones Who have to watch on Telly can see a heck of the lot of the action - the one thing the guys watching on telly can see is the action replays , the slow Mo’s etc and with the modern cameras even a lot of the off the ball stuff even with things like Player cam - and then if there is someone who needs to be highlighted then it’s done in the studio. The only thing imo the match going fans have over the others is the atmosphere and the interaction with other fans

But going to game or sitting watching the Telly doesn’t make someone’s opinion more valid than the other.

There will be guys who go to the game who don’t have a clue and ones who watch the Telly who are very knowledgeable - it’s the worst discussion in football

 

[Swango1980]

We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one, nothing can replace actually being there, yes, you may get close ups and endless replays of what the TV Companies decide they want you to see, but they won’t show the off the ball running and effort, boring stuff by some players which is often missed and unappreciatted by us telly clappers.

Ultimately, this discussion is between you and I, not between myself and your mate. All you are doing is hiding behind the opinion of 3 season ticket holders, as you claim they are "proper fans". It is an incredible argument to make, unless you are confident the tens of thousands of season ticket holders all hold the same opinion. I am pretty sure the tens of thousands of season ticket holders do not hold the same opinions, and could have massively different views. As I said, the evidence is there when you hear them speak outside the ground. I'm pretty confident that there will be some season ticket holders at Utd that generally agree with my comments.

I also would happily debate Liverpool issues with Liverpool fans if I had any sort of opinion, but I wouldn't be so bold as to invalidate their opinion simply because I find out they are not a season ticket holder and that I once talked to a season ticket holder who had a different view. I'd be embarrassed by even suggesting that, especially as a non Liverpool fan. Despite them not holding a season ticket, I'd have to appreciate they probably watch most games, they read many more articles, watch youtube videos and fan reactions, are more self critical on their players than a non-fan etc. If you claim to know very little about the long term issues, then fine, but best to avoid getting into much of a debate on it if you don't know what you are on about. What happened on Sunday against Liverpool is not a short term issue, it is part of the long term problems we have been experiencing week in, week out. As a Utd fan, even when we win, it feels like an ordeal. I try to remember a time we go into a game, and it is pretty comfortable from start to finish. It just doesn't happen, to me it is a miracle we finished 2nd last year. A team that finishes second you'd expect quite a few "easy" wins, but it never felt that way. I dreamed of a time that we could go 2 or 3 goals up and just coast to a win, but it never seems to happen. Worse, we seem to go behind and need to push until the end. It is nice when you've got that ability, but rather it wasn't something you had to rely on almost weekly.

I also never claim to have all the answers, far from it. If I became manager I'd have many flaws myself, and be sacked in a month. If I was to take Fred's position in midfield, I'd never get a game. But, relative to what one would expect, Ole is a far far bigger problem than the players.

 

[Billysboots]

We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one, nothing can replace actually being there, yes, you may get close ups and endless replays of what the TV Companies decide they want you to see, but they won’t show the off the ball running and effort, boring stuff by some players which is often missed and unappreciatted by us telly clappers.

Whenever I’m at Old Trafford, if the game’s a bit of a bore I choose a player to watch, and at times it pays dividends. You do, as you say, see so much more first hand.

Bruno Fernandes, when he first arrived, was a case in point. I went to a Europa League game just before Covid hit and I can tell you his movement off the ball was as good as I’ve ever seen. Incredible.

The biggest personal result I ever had was being able to say I adopted a similar tactic several years ago when sitting in the South Stand watching an utter bore fest against Newcastle. The first hour having been truly turgid I chose to watch Wayne Rooney, who was having a particularly grumpy afternoon. Fortunately for me, about two minutes later he scored that wonder volley from 20-odd yards in front of the Stretford End.

I’ve had the pleasure (?) of watching a ludicrously well organised Bayern Munich a few seasons back when Moyes was in charge. The compact, two banks of four were virtually impenetrable. Well drilled, everyone knew their role - typical German efficiency.

Alas, this season I have already witnessed first hand the utter chaos which is this Solskjaer side. Trust me, if there is any doubt whatsoever there shouldn’t be. This United side are every bit as bad as they look on television, and then some.

 

[Deleted member 1740]

No worries mate, just the one point, a season ticket holder will see players week in/week out and will see a lot more of off the ball action than what the telly clappers will see, they can see what a defence is doing when their team are attacking etc.

You may disagree, but it is that, that imo gives their opinion more validity, anyone regardless of circumstance can be passionate and very knowledgeable about the team they support and the game in general, but we also have the glory hunters who can be very opinionated without having a clue.

This post deserves a proper standing ovation. Bravo sir.

 

[Orikoru]

One player I got a new appreciation for when I use to go to Spurs games was Peter Crouch. On telly you'd think he was just a beanpole to launch crosses at sometimes. But in the game you'd see how hard he worked at closing down defenders, constantly being on the move, and a really good link up play with the ball at his feet as well.

 

[Deleted member 1740]

Ultimately, this discussion is between you and I, not between myself and your mate. All you are doing is hiding behind the opinion of 3 season ticket holders, as you claim they are "proper fans". It is an incredible argument to make, unless you are confident the tens of thousands of season ticket holders all hold the same opinion. I am pretty sure the tens of thousands of season ticket holders do not hold the same opinions, and could have massively different views. As I said, the evidence is there when you hear them speak outside the ground. I'm pretty confident that there will be some season ticket holders at Utd that generally agree with my comments.

I also would happily debate Liverpool issues with Liverpool fans if I had any sort of opinion, but I wouldn't be so bold as to invalidate their opinion simply because I find out they are not a season ticket holder and that I once talked to a season ticket holder who had a different view. I'd be embarrassed by even suggesting that, especially as a non Liverpool fan. Despite them not holding a season ticket, I'd have to appreciate they probably watch most games, they read many more articles, watch youtube videos and fan reactions, are more self critical on their players than a non-fan etc. If you claim to know very little about the long term issues, then fine, but best to avoid getting into much of a debate on it if you don't know what you are on about. What happened on Sunday against Liverpool is not a short term issue, it is part of the long term problems we have been experiencing week in, week out. As a Utd fan, even when we win, it feels like an ordeal. I try to remember a time we go into a game, and it is pretty comfortable from start to finish. It just doesn't happen, to me it is a miracle we finished 2nd last year. A team that finishes second you'd expect quite a few "easy" wins, but it never felt that way. I dreamed of a time that we could go 2 or 3 goals up and just coast to a win, but it never seems to happen. Worse, we seem to go behind and need to push until the end. It is nice when you've got that ability, but rather it wasn't something you had to rely on almost weekly.

I also never claim to have all the answers, far from it. If I became manager I'd have many flaws myself, and be sacked in a month. If I was to take Fred's position in midfield, I'd never get a game. But, relative to what one would expect, Ole is a far far bigger problem than the players.

The highlighted bit is a very important point.

In my opinion this goes as far back as Ferguson.

He knew in his last few seasons that he had to replace that back 4 but he also knew he never had time to rebuild. Signing RVP totally went against his usual plan. He adopted the old "we'll score more than you" approach.

 

[Billysboots]

The highlighted bit is a very important point.

In my opinion this goes as far back as Ferguson.

He knew in his last few seasons that he had to replace that back 4 but he also knew he never had time to rebuild. Signing RVP totally went against his usual plan. He adopted the old "we'll score more than you" approach.

Agreed. Ferguson went at precisely the right time, leaving a largely ageing squad. RVP won him that final title.

I think there was some strange recruitment prior to SAF retiring if I’m honest. The current malaise is nothing new - it’s probably a decade in the making - and the total chaos otherwise known as a transfer “policy”, where the club have made any number of signings not knowing how they fit into a plan, and have failed, repeatedly, to clear out the deadwood, has been at the heart of it.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Ultimately, this discussion is between you and I, not between myself and your mate. All you are doing is hiding behind the opinion of 3 season ticket holders, as you claim they are "proper fans". It is an incredible argument to make, unless you are confident the tens of thousands of season ticket holders all hold the same opinion. I am pretty sure the tens of thousands of season ticket holders do not hold the same opinions, and could have massively different views. As I said, the evidence is there when you hear them speak outside the ground. I'm pretty confident that there will be some season ticket holders at Utd that generally agree with my comments.

I also would happily debate Liverpool issues with Liverpool fans if I had any sort of opinion, but I wouldn't be so bold as to invalidate their opinion simply because I find out they are not a season ticket holder and that I once talked to a season ticket holder who had a different view. I'd be embarrassed by even suggesting that, especially as a non Liverpool fan. Despite them not holding a season ticket, I'd have to appreciate they probably watch most games, they read many more articles, watch youtube videos and fan reactions, are more self critical on their players than a non-fan etc. If you claim to know very little about the long term issues, then fine, but best to avoid getting into much of a debate on it if you don't know what you are on about. What happened on Sunday against Liverpool is not a short term issue, it is part of the long term problems we have been experiencing week in, week out. As a Utd fan, even when we win, it feels like an ordeal. I try to remember a time we go into a game, and it is pretty comfortable from start to finish. It just doesn't happen, to me it is a miracle we finished 2nd last year. A team that finishes second you'd expect quite a few "easy" wins, but it never felt that way. I dreamed of a time that we could go 2 or 3 goals up and just coast to a win, but it never seems to happen. Worse, we seem to go behind and need to push until the end. It is nice when you've got that ability, but rather it wasn't something you had to rely on almost weekly.

I also never claim to have all the answers, far from it. If I became manager I'd have many flaws myself, and be sacked in a month. If I was to take Fred's position in midfield, I'd never get a game. But, relative to what one would expect, Ole is a far far bigger problem than the players.

Wow, you really are precious! I did quite clearly state it was my opinion, at no time did I say it was correct.

I used the analogy of the 3 Season Ticket holders due to the fact they are genuine fans who are financially invested in the Club, at the same time I said up here in the NE as you get glory hunters, some of these guys have never even seen Utd play, even against Sunderland and Newcastle away, they’ve not put in the miles or the hours and IMO, they don’t get the same perspective on all players as those who go the games, hence why I (as in me) value the opinion of the season ticket holders.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Let's be absolutely honest here, who the heck watches what's going on off the ball at a football match? Most people have their eyes glued to the ball and maybe sometimes glimpse away if something catches their eye, otherwise it's following play and not seeing if player x has dropped deep to sweep or player y has dropped the nut on someone ?

Believe it not mate, some actually do watch certain players or glance to see what’s happening on the sideline etc, see Billyboots post for proof of that.??

Some of the greatest in the world done their best work off the ball.??

 

[Swango1980]

The highlighted bit is a very important point.

In my opinion this goes as far back as Ferguson.

He knew in his last few seasons that he had to replace that back 4 but he also knew he never had time to rebuild. Signing RVP totally went against his usual plan. He adopted the old "we'll score more than you" approach.

Agreed, we've had problems ever since Fergie left, and the squad was in no way perfect when Moyes took over. However, whatever approach Fergie took in his last season, it was not a blind approach. He knew what he was doing, and he got the best out of that squad.

The issues since have been numerous. I felt sorry for Moyes, as everyone knew it would be an almost impossible task for anyone who took over. If Utd had a bad game the season before, no one doubted Fergie. It was a bad day for the players, a blip or the team needs strengthening. When Utd had a bad game under Moyes, the pressure was firmly on him, and no doubt the players would even question his methods, as they differed from Fergie. Natural human reaction.

I didn't know much about Van Gaal before he took over, but he came with a fairly high standing in the game. To me, he was a crazy man. I almost put him in Mourinho in the same category as their personalities were too big, in that is was all about them. I guess it worked for Jose in his early days at Chelsea, as he had all the senior players on board and he deflected all attention from them and onto him. But at United, when things didn't go well, he didn't have all the senior players with him, and his fall outs were too public. The fact he lived in a hotel always gave the impression to me that he was not committed, and did not want to be in Manchester a second longer than he needed to.

During the time of those 3 managers, our business in the transfer market was bizarre at times. I'd never accuse them of being tactically inept however, it just didn't work out, no matter how I wished it would.

Since Ole has come in, I honestly feel we've improved in the transfer market. We got rid of big players like Sanchez, Lukaku, etc. (even though Lukaku did great for Inter, I think it was the right call). It feels like we've steadily built and improved the squad during each window. Yes, Ronaldo seems like the rare last minute signing that was not really expected. However, I will not start feeling sorry for Ole that he suddenly got Ronaldo in his side, especially as one of the positions fans were crying out for was a striker. It is a possibility that, if Ronaldo had not been signed, Ole could have been sacked by now, as he has been involved in our best moments this season. I love Cavani and Greenwood to death, but it would be a big assumption to say they'd have done the same as Ronaldo if he hadn't been there. But, we'll never know.

After Fergie and before Ole, I had no idea what the direction of the club was. It really just felt like trying to randomly buy yourself to success, sticking plaster here, sticking plaster there. After Ole, things seem to have settled down, and there seems to be a bit more direction, at least in terms of the transfer market. The club seem to have given him much more of a chance as well. Ole has not been a complete disaster, and I even like to think he can take credit for settling that side of things down. The issue now is different, in that we have a manager who is just not good enough from a tactical point of view. I think he is now losing the respect from players in the dressing room, as the frustration of fans becomes evident. Perhaps Covid and empty stadiums helped, as he and players were not subject to frustration in the crowd. I wasn't at Ronaldo's second debut, but it seemed like one of the best atmospheres at Old Trafford in decades, and I'm sure the players were on a high. However, against Liverpool, I do not remember such a toxic atmosphere by the fans. How quickly things can change. And, it is not because the fans are fickle and are annoyed by a few bad performances. They are performances that have been common for quite some time.

 

[Deleted member 1740]

Watching at the ground has benefits in respect of seeing what the players do when the camera isn’t on them but as you say with most games now being broadcast one way or the other then most fans whether they be ones who fortunately can go to game or the ones Who have to watch on Telly can see a heck of the lot of the action - the one thing the guys watching on telly can see is the action replays , the slow Mo’s etc and with the modern cameras even a lot of the off the ball stuff even with things like Player cam - and then if there is someone who needs to be highlighted then it’s done in the studio. The only thing imo the match going fans have over the others is the atmosphere and the interaction with other fans

But going to game or sitting watching the Telly doesn’t make someone’s opinion more valid than the other.

There will be guys who go to the game who don’t have a clue and ones who watch the Telly who are very knowledgeable - it’s the worst discussion in football

Didn't sky jib the player cam a few seasons ago?

Where are those who follow it on twitter in the knowledgeable chart?

If you don't go,don't blow.

Have an opinion by all means but don't be calling for managers head etc from the comfort of your armchair.?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Didn't sky jib the player cam a few seasons ago?

Where are those who follow it on twitter in the knowledgeable chart?

If you don't go,don't blow.

Have an opinion by all means but don't be calling for managers head etc from the comfort of your armchair.?

well Twitter experts are one step below the manager ? they are currently waiting for the call after taking their champ manager team to the treble 3 years on the trot

As for calling for the manager to go - I don’t see why someone who doesn’t go to games for many reason can’t demand the club change things ? Surely it’s not just restricted to 70k-80k fans when it comes to demanding that the manager goes etc

Football is more than just the people who are lucky to go and watch their teams

 

[Hobbit]

Didn't sky jib the player cam a few seasons ago?

Where are those who follow it on twitter in the knowledgeable chart?

If you don't go,don't blow.

Have an opinion by all means but don't be calling for managers head etc from the comfort of your armchair.?

Sorry Stu but you don’t make the rules on who can call for a manager’s head. You don’t have to be at the game to read a league table and see a string of poor results. There’s good, knowledgeable season ticket holders and there’s thick ones. Same goes for those that sit glued to the tv.

Yes, absolutely you get a better perspective from the stands but you still have to be bright enough to interpret what you see. I’ve been a season ticket holder and heard plenty of rubbish spouted in the stands.

I’ve seen some very perceptive comments on here from season ticket holders, and I’ve seen some dross. Same applies to those made by the armchair viewer.

 

[Piece]

Let's be absolutely honest here, who the heck watches what's going on off the ball at a football match? Most people have their eyes glued to the ball and maybe sometimes glimpse away if something catches their eye, otherwise it's following play and not seeing if player x has dropped deep to sweep or player y has dropped the nut on someone ?

All the time. That's how you learn. Only one player has the ball, meaning that 21 players don't have the ball. It is so important what the players without the ball are doing. I coach our kids to try and be in the right place at the right time, whether they are defending or attacking. Personally I learn so much from going to live games, watching the very best in action seeing what they do off the ball. City and Liverpool in their pomp are something to behold live; you just don't "see it" on the TV, despite the endless camera angles and analysis. When City flobbed us 6-0 at The Vic in Sept 2017, I remember coming away from the game thinking that's the best football I've seen live and that's how I want to coach my football.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Sorry Stu but you don’t make the rules on who can call for a manager’s head. You don’t have to be at the game to read a league table and see a string of poor results. There’s good, knowledgeable season ticket holders and there’s thick ones. Same goes for those that sit glued to the tv.

Yes, absolutely you get a better perspective from the stands but you still have to be bright enough to interpret what you see. I’ve been a season ticket holder and heard plenty of rubbish spouted in the stands.

I’ve seen some very perceptive comments on here from season ticket holders, and I’ve seen some dross. Same applies to those made by the armchair viewer.

Bri, sorry mate but like others you’re reading to much in to the posts, nobody (without emoji’s) has insulted anyone’s intelligence, some have twisted what I posted.

You probably know just as many if not more people in the NE who don’t support their local club, no problem it’s their choice, and when there are discussions about Utd, I will take more stock in the opinion of the 3 ST holders than the gloryhunter who has never been to a match.

It’s not a fact, just my opinion.??

 

[Hobbit]

Bri, sorry mate but like others you’re reading to much in to the posts, nobody (without emoji’s) has insulted anyone’s intelligence, some have twisted what I posted.

You probably know just as many if not more people in the NE who don’t support their local club, no problem it’s their choice, and when there are discussions about Utd, I will take more stock in the opinion of the 3 ST holders than the gloryhunter who has never been to a match.

It’s not a fact, just my opinion.??

I’ve not suggested anyone’s intelligence has been insulted, nor did I quote your post. However, I am saying that armchair viewers can have a valid viewpoint. Yes, they do miss the wider view of what’s happening off the ball but, for example, a 0-5 win isn’t close enough to split hairs over. That + a string of very indifferent displays even an armchair viewer can make an easy judgement.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I’ve not suggested anyone’s intelligence has been insulted, nor did I quote your post. However, I am saying that armchair viewers can have a valid viewpoint. Yes, they do miss the wider view of what’s happening off the ball but, for example, a 0-5 win isn’t close enough to split hairs over. That + a string of very indifferent displays even an armchair viewer can make an easy judgement.

The use of the words “thick” and “bright enough” is what I’m talking about and I believe Stu’s post was tongue in cheek looking at who he was responding to and the use of emoji’s.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

This is just a touch weird ?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/nypo...-over-video-of-him-biting-daughters-toes/amp/

 

[Swango1980]

Bri, sorry mate but like others you’re reading to much in to the posts, nobody (without emoji’s) has insulted anyone’s intelligence, some have twisted what I posted.

You probably know just as many if not more people in the NE who don’t support their local club, no problem it’s their choice, and when there are discussions about Utd, I will take more stock in the opinion of the 3 ST holders than the gloryhunter who has never been to a match.

It’s not a fact, just my opinion.??

Your contribution is pointless though, unless you are trying to say all non-season ticket holder fans are glory hunters who have never been to a match. You insult the intelligence of millions of fans in that one statement, and not just United fans. Do you also label Liverpool fans in the same bracket, if they do not hold a season ticket. I'm from Northern Ireland, and I know many Liverpool fans. And, many of them are absolutely passionate about their club. They bleed Liverpool, they watch every game, they look forward to every game. They are ecstatic when they win, and hurt when they lose. They are ripping United fans to pieces as we speak on social media, and fair enough. They'll wear the Liverpool shirt and be proud of it, their kids will become mad Liverpool fans as it will be brainwashed into them. Likewise, I have no doubt you have equally passionate Liverpool fans around the UK, and around the globe. Same as Man Utd. I know several passionate Newcastle fans down here in the East Midlands, and I would never question them as a fan or that they'll lack knowledge compared to these so called "proper fans".

So, in my opinion, you embarrass yourself by even trying to bring this into the discussion. Hopefully you're simply acting the troll and trying to get some to take the bait. If so, well done, fantastic contribution to the thread. If not, I would sincerely take any of your opinions with a pinch of salt in the future as you seem to lack reasoning skills. Last season, a small minority of Liverpool fans were shockingly calling for Klopps head due to frustrating results. I'm sure a small number might even attend Liverpool matches. However, there was no way I'd ever agree with that opinion, over another Liverpool fan from London who still had belief in Klopp.