The Footie Thread

[nickjdavis]

Just a rhetorical question/thought… time and again pretty much everyone criticises FFP/PSR yet knock City for breaking the very rules we don’t agree with. Ok, one club adhering to them and another, allegedly, flouting them is unfair but, equally, how does a club get to the top table without spending massively, aka City & Chelsea?

The letter of the law suggests City are guilty but I think the law is flawed.

They don't.

Many would argue that that is the whole point of FFP/PSR.

 

[clubchamp98]

Think there are a few clubs that seemingly have escaped any detailed scrutiny and Barca definitely one of those. I know City are claiming they have irrefutable evidence of no wrong doing but this is usually the same claims a celebrity makes before going into court and then moving straight to jail without passing go and collecting £200. It will be interesting to see what loopholes they are going to use and will that be applicable to other sides or are their offences different in relation to how the debts have been amassed. Definitely going to be interesting and if City do get away with the majority (can't see them getting away with everything) what Forest, and others do

What can they do.
Refuse to play against blatant cheats.
There would be no games in the PL
There all at it in some way.

 

[Bdill93]

Just a rhetorical question/thought… time and again pretty much everyone criticises FFP/PSR yet knock City for breaking the very rules we don’t agree with. Ok, one club adhering to them and another, allegedly, flouting them is unfair but, equally, how does a club get to the top table without spending massively, aka City & Chelsea?

The letter of the law suggests City are guilty but I think the law is flawed.

The only answer is spending money and/ or improving players with great coaching.

The current best clubs in the country do both.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

The only answer is spending money and/ or improving players with great coaching.

The current best clubs in the country do both.

If you accept that most clubs have decent to excellent coaches now, it is reality now, then you come down to the players you have to work with. The largely comes down to money.

If you look at a team like Crystal Palace, brilliant at developing players but then they get vacuumed up by the rich teams so they can only ever improve so much as a team. Money wins more often than not, although Man Utd and Chelsea are currently doing their best to disprove this .

 

[nickjdavis]

Building the club

Smart signings , good management , a very good academy , developing players , good scouting , building up revenue to allow the club to spend

Clubs can still spend money - just do it smartly

There does need to be spending rules in place - if not then it’s just how ever had the richest owner will win

IMO the rules need to in place that allow any club to be able to spend the same as the top club relative to their income

So if Liverpool for example bring in £700mil then that’s what every club can spend with some level of losses

So if Ipswich for want to spend £700mil they can buy the gap between their revenue and the spend must be bonded by the owner - debt is on him

This is obviously the correct answer...growth and spending according to your revenues.

But in truth it is likely to be utterly unrealistic for the vast majority of clubs to develop their income streams, quickly enough, in order for them to catch up...the goalposts/target will be continually moving away from them as the big clubs further develop their wealth and income. Money goes to money as they say.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

The answer would be to bring a cap in as per a lot of US sports across UEFA but that is never going to happen so we'll always have City, Barca and others using the rules as best they can to get maximum advantage

 

[HomerJSimpson]

If you accept that most clubs have decent to excellent coaches now, it is reality now, then you come down to the players you have to work with. The largely comes down to money.

If you look at a team like Crystal Palace, brilliant at developing players but then they get vacuumed up by the rich teams so they can only ever improve so much as a team. Money wins more often than not, although Man Utd and Chelsea are currently doing their best to disprove this .

Fulham too. Always brought players through that then go to other clubs (usually on a paltry fee but that is down to the owners and good business by the buying club). Josh King will be next

 

[Arthur Wedge]

This is obviously the correct answer...growth and spending according to your revenues.

But in truth it is likely to be utterly unrealistic for the vast majority of clubs to develop their income streams, quickly enough, in order for them to catch up...the goalposts/target will be continually moving away from them as the big clubs further develop their wealth and income. Money goes to money as they say.

The issue these days is since Chelsea did it and did it quickly modern fans want the quick success and that is done by money

I see it with Liverpool fans constantly moaning that we don’t spend enough money and wanting the owners out because they aren’t spending their own money

We managed to win a good number of trophies through smart buying and selling and then building on it

But for some it’s not enough

The arrival of the Premier League was the start of the money in the sport

Before that a Villa or Forest or Derby , Everton etc could challenge for titles through smart management and recruitment of players

Not sure what the answer is - there needs to be spending limits but not sure how it can be done to make it fair

 

[Bdill93]

If you accept that most clubs have decent to excellent coaches now, it is reality now, then you come down to the players you have to work with. The largely comes down to money.

If you look at a team like Crystal Palace, brilliant at developing players but then they get vacuumed up by the rich teams so they can only ever improve so much as a team. Money wins more often than not, although Man Utd and Chelsea are currently doing their best to disprove this .

Name me a player that Ten Hag has improved....

Good coaches and great coaches are miles apart still.

Of course, you're right, money always talks, but its no good buying a team that doesn't blend together.... Chelsea.....

Annoyingly, City, Liverpool and Arsenal have both - although I'm less convinced on Arteta, he keeps spending yet won his only trophy with a squad of players that wasn't his - needs to get more silverware

 

[HomerJSimpson]

The issue these days is since Chelsea did it and did it quickly modern fans want the quick success and that is done by money

I see it with Liverpool fans constantly moaning that we don’t spend enough money and wanting the owners out because they aren’t spending their own money

We managed to win a good number of trophies through smart buying and selling and then building on it

But for some it’s not enough

The arrival of the Premier League was the start of the money in the sport

Before that a Villa or Forest or Derby , Everton etc could challenge for titles through smart management and recruitment of players

Not sure what the answer is - there needs to be spending limits but not sure how it can be done to make it fair

But wasn't that the case as far back as Jack Walker and Blackburn. Leeds did it to disasterous effect (before FFP) and Newcastle tried to by big to challenge. Others like Arsenal have had successes without busting the bank and Arteta is proving as shrewd as Wenger so it isn't just Liverpool

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Name me a player that Ten Hag has improved....

Good coaches and great coaches are miles apart still.

Of course, you're right, money always talks, but its no good buying a team that doesn't blend together.... Chelsea.....

Annoyingly, City, Liverpool and Arsenal have both - although I'm less convinced on Arteta, he keeps spending yet won his only trophy with a squad of players that wasn't his - needs to get more silverware

Arteta so far has spent over £700mil in 5 years and so far has won an FA Cup .

I suspect he will be jumping to someone like Barce soon enough

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Arteta so far has spent over £700mil in 5 years and so far has won an FA Cup .

I suspect he will be jumping to someone like Barce soon enough

I disagree. He has come very close to the PL and if City do lose points he could be in contention again. Has certainly made them far more consistent in terms of league position. I agree they need to improve in the CL. Can't see Arteta going to Barca if they also get hit with FFP penalties. Sure that one isn't done

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Name me a player that Ten Hag has improved....

Good coaches and great coaches are miles apart still.

Of course, you're right, money always talks, but its no good buying a team that doesn't blend together.... Chelsea.....

Annoyingly, City, Liverpool and Arsenal have both - although I'm less convinced on Arteta, he keeps spending yet won his only trophy with a squad of players that wasn't his - needs to get more silverware

I deliberately didn't mention ETH although I totally agree with you. It looks as though we always have a pile on to him, quite rightly imo, but I didn't want this discussion to get into another utd v the world chat.

There are lots of excellent coaches who are not at top 6 teams, coaches who max out what a player can do, who improve players. Quite often they are the number 2 in a partnership, only the actual fans of that club get to know their names. Anyway, even if they max out a player, if that player is still not quite good enough for the top 6, is that the coaches fault? They can only do the best with what they have.

When you have that wonderful combination of best coaches and best players, that is when you get a sight that is great to watch.

 

[PaulMdj]

It’s not just the coaches and players though, it’s a lot, lot more!

Club history
Marketing
World profile
Attractiveness to Sponsors
Stadium

Amongst a few others.

There are Clubs in Division 1 & 2 that you could gift the best players & Coach’s to, allow them unlimited spend to reach the PL and then the PL ffp rules would knacker them to be able to stay and maintain the level required to compete with the big Clubs.

The income generated by the biggest Clubs has been built up over 30-40yrs and anyone wishing to challenge them are expected to take that long to catch them whilst the biggest Clubs standstill.

Never going to happen, just pissing in the wind.

 

[PaulMdj]

Building the club

Smart signings , good management , a very good academy , developing players , good scouting , building up revenue to allow the club to spend

Clubs can still spend money - just do it smartly

There does need to be spending rules in place - if not then it’s just how ever had the richest owner will win

IMO the rules need to in place that allow any club to be able to spend the same as the top club relative to their income

So if Liverpool for example bring in £700mil then that’s what every club can spend with some level of losses

So if Ipswich for want to spend £700mil they can buy the gap between their revenue and the spend must be bonded by the owner - debt is on him

No one would disagree with the bit in bold, but it wasn’t and will never be a level playing field from when the rules were introduced.

 

[GB72]

It is a vicious circle. To increase global recognition and attract the biggest sponsors you need to win things, to win things you need the best players and coaches, to get the best players and coaches you need to spend money, to spend money you need the income from global recognition and to be able to attract the biggest sponsors.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

No one would disagree with the bit in bold, but it wasn’t and will never be a level playing field from when the rules were introduced.

When was it last a level playing field ? 80’s ?

 

[Swango1980]

Name me a player that Ten Hag has improved....

Good coaches and great coaches are miles apart still.

Of course, you're right, money always talks, but its no good buying a team that doesn't blend together.... Chelsea.....

Annoyingly, City, Liverpool and Arsenal have both - although I'm less convinced on Arteta, he keeps spending yet won his only trophy with a squad of players that wasn't his - needs to get more silverware

Dalot? Has he helped develop Mainoo and Garnacho, and how would they have developed under other coaches? Has Martinez developed since working with him at Ajax? Still has been one of my favourite players over last 2 years, just disappointing he was out injured so much last season. Amad has looked pretty sharp and looks to have improved.

I think it would be a lot easier for him to develop players if he is able to pick a pretty consistent side week in, week out, as the players become familiar with the players around them. There were a lot of players that came away with a lot of credit in his first season. I think we'll get a chance to see what he can do over the next few months with the current players, and it should be a fairly different team to what he had in his 1st season. Of course, if it is a disaster by Xmas, then it'll probably be time to see if there is a great manager out there that everyone, including non Man Utd fans, are going to laud as a great manager and capable of bring Utd to the top again (I'll not hold my breath ).

 

[Arthur Wedge]

ok who set off the Ten Haag alarm

 

[PaulMdj]

When was it last a level playing field ? 80’s ?

When there were no spending rules.

I know it’s difficult to see rivals overtake or buy players by offering them more money, but imo, they have took the fairy tales out of Football.

Yes, I get all the arguments about Clubs going bust or owners walking away etc, but that’s always been the case.