The First Year of WHS - Positives and Negatives

[rulefan]

Which surely could have been done in CONGU rules too? The switch to WHS has driven the creation and use of these apps but it could have happened under CONGU.

Indeed. The pre-registering requirement was built in to the ISVs' pre WHS PSIs.
EG have confirmed that the initial step in using a PSI or app and the resultant link message to WHS is considered to be 'pre-registering'.

 

[Backache]

Personally I've no objection to the idea that you can put in cards from social play, it's the idea that you should put in cards from social play.
I've no wish to cheat the system but it just does not suit the way I play golf socially.

 

[jim8flog]

Playing of yellows is a non-issue..

Putting in cards from the yellows where I play is an issue for me

The difference between the course ratings is 1.4 however for me the difference between yellows and whites is 3 shots.

 

[jim8flog]

The clue is in the name, and the old wording, they were meant to be supplementary if you weren't getting enough scores in. And if you were Cat 1, forget it.

Under Congu you could put in as many as you liked (ex Cat1) and we positively encouraged it in the year leading up to the WHS.
Even prior to that we had a few putting in one a week.

 

[sweaty sock]

Putting in cards from the yellows where I play is an issue for me

The difference between the course ratings is 1.4 however for me the difference between yellows and whites is 3 shots.

How so? Slope?

 

[jim8flog]

How so? Slope?

Not a lot between the slope of the two tees (124/128) and I get the same number of shots on either tee most of the time.
It's is a length thing,
one hole I cannot reach in 2 off the whites and
two par 5s become 'true' par 5s ie 3 shotters tee to green for me from the white whereas I can make the green in 2 from the yellows

The same problems do not exist for relatively longer hitters hence only a small difference in course rating.

 

[Swango1980]

Putting in cards from the yellows where I play is an issue for me

The difference between the course ratings is 1.4 however for me the difference between yellows and whites is 3 shots.

I suppose if you evaluate your own personal ability, then arguably this would always be the case when playing on any different course. For example, you may find that there is a bigger difference between whites and yellows at your club compared to what the Course Rating suggests. However, that would also be true when you go to play any other club. Some clubs you may find the Course Rating suits you and your handicap, others you'll think the course plays much harder or easier for you, compared to how you fee at your own club off whites.

Ultimately, if you want a handicap that you, as an individual, can be absolutely sure is as accurate as possible for a particular course, then you'd want all scores on you record from that course. If you play more course, you'll start to get a broader handicap that is applicable to courses in general. Unless, of course, there is a feeling that either your whites or yellows are rated incorrectly

 

[sweaty sock]

Not a lot between the slope of the two tees (124/128) and I get the same number of shots on either tee most of the time.
It's is a length thing,
one hole I cannot reach in 2 off the whites and
two par 5s become 'true' par 5s ie 3 shotters tee to green for me from the white whereas I can make the green in 2 from the yellows

The same problems do not exist for relatively longer hitters hence only a small difference in course rating.

I find the opposite problem, our course is rated 2.5 shots easier off the yellows, but apart from 1 par three that goes from wedge to 7 iron, there's negligible difference in second shots for me, all the par 5s are reachable from either tee and the only difference is 1 club max into the greens. Where I'm supposed to find 3 shots from is a total mystery...

 

[Backache]

Unless the difference between two tees is massive the actual difference in strokes on the same hole for two sets of tees for any but the most incompetent of golfers is always going to be fractional.
Unless you have kept meticulous records over many rounds I'm not to sure how anyone can say there is a definitive lack of difference between two sets of tees.

 

[jim8flog]

I suppose if you evaluate your own personal ability, then arguably this would always be the case when playing on any different course. For example, you may find that there is a bigger difference between whites and yellows at your club compared to what the Course Rating suggests. However, that would also be true when you go to play any other club. Some clubs you may find the Course Rating suits you and your handicap, others you'll think the course plays much harder or easier for you, compared to how you fee at your own club off whites.

Ultimately, if you want a handicap that you, as an individual, can be absolutely sure is as accurate as possible for a particular course, then you'd want all scores on you record from that course. If you play more course, you'll start to get a broader handicap that is applicable to courses in general. Unless, of course, there is a feeling that either your whites or yellows are rated incorrectly

My days of playing away are in the dim and distant past

No arguments with the ratings it just my age and ability, particularly length (40-50 yards down on my irons compared to when I was at my longest) these days.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

I only rejoined a club in late June and don't know anyone at the club, so I only managed 6 comp rounds and one casual round under the new system. But I did like how it worked, I think it's a truer reflection of where your golf will be if you play enough.

If I was at a club where I had a regular game each week I would definitely be putting in general play scores each week. That's what I like best about the new system, you don't need to wait for comps to be able to submit cards. Not everyone can play when the comps are on so why not allow people to do it when they can play.

I hope I can get some more rounds in next year and hopefully find a regular game so I can get extras in too.

That's fine, if you want to do it- great?

But many, including me, do not want to play a round to the full rules of golf, most times I play.
I want to take a shot again if I want to, or try s particular shot that I wouldn't do, if trying for my best score.
IOW, I want to relax and enjoy my golf and the company.
Others can do as they wish, but what is worrying me since this WHS thing started is that there are a number of people almost coercing others to put in cards. Making noises about people being bandits if they don't etc.
Forgetting that if someone was minded to cheat by keeping a false handicap, then it is easy to put in general play cards with a score that is "accidentally on purpose " of a score to send their index higher!
Indeed, could it be said that the system now could make it easier to cheat.?
Suppose our cheat wants to take a high (er) handicap to a tasty Open in a months time.
His club have just two competitions beforehand.
However he also submits 6 or more casual rounds in the interim, not scoring very well it seems?
Not being an expert on the system, I might have this completely wrong, but,
Am I right in thinking his index could be higher for the Open than it would be if his only qualifying scores were from the two club competitions.?

 

[rulefan]

Am I right in thinking his index could be higher for the Open than it would be if his only qualifying scores were from the two club competitions.?

If his scoring record has 3 scores, his Index would be his best (de-sloped) Differential minus 2.0

 

[Garush34]

That's fine, if you want to do it- great?

But many, including me, do not want to play a round to the full rules of golf, most times I play.
I want to take a shot again if I want to, or try s particular shot that I wouldn't do, if trying for my best score.
IOW, I want to relax and enjoy my golf and the company.
Others can do as they wish, but what is worrying me since this WHS thing started is that there are a number of people almost coercing others to put in cards. Making noises about people being bandits if they don't etc.
Forgetting that if someone was minded to cheat by keeping a false handicap, then it is easy to put in general play cards with a score that is "accidentally on purpose " of a score to send their index higher!
Indeed, could it be said that the system now could make it easier to cheat.?
Suppose our cheat wants to take a high (er) handicap to a tasty Open in a months time.
His club have just two competitions beforehand.
However he also submits 6 or more casual rounds in the interim, not scoring very well it seems?
Not being an expert on the system, I might have this completely wrong, but,
Am I right in thinking his index could be higher for the Open than it would be if his only qualifying scores were from the two club competitions.?

I guess it would all depend on his last 20 counting scores really. It would also depend on how well he plays in said open. No guarantees he's going to play well so it could all be for nought.

I get what people say about being called bandits but on the other side, why is it bad that someone like me would want all their scores to count. I just want to improve my Handicap and get it as low as possible. This system allows me to do that all year round if my club doesn't have many comps.

 

[Swango1980]

That's fine, if you want to do it- great?

But many, including me, do not want to play a round to the full rules of golf, most times I play.
I want to take a shot again if I want to, or try s particular shot that I wouldn't do, if trying for my best score.
IOW, I want to relax and enjoy my golf and the company.
Others can do as they wish, but what is worrying me since this WHS thing started is that there are a number of people almost coercing others to put in cards. Making noises about people being bandits if they don't etc.
Forgetting that if someone was minded to cheat by keeping a false handicap, then it is easy to put in general play cards with a score that is "accidentally on purpose " of a score to send their index higher!
Indeed, could it be said that the system now could make it easier to cheat.?
Suppose our cheat wants to take a high (er) handicap to a tasty Open in a months time.
His club have just two competitions beforehand.
However he also submits 6 or more casual rounds in the interim, not scoring very well it seems?
Not being an expert on the system, I might have this completely wrong, but,
Am I right in thinking his index could be higher for the Open than it would be if his only qualifying scores were from the two club competitions.?

Yes, Index would increase, if a player put in a load of poor general play rounds. These would remove older scores from last 20, and if any of these were in the players top 8, they'd be replaced by worse scores

 

[Backsticks]

The linking of handicap manipulation to the handicap system is a red herring. Neither WHS, nor the previous system, have as goals, the elimination of handicap cheats. It is like criticising WHS because it really does little for peace in the middle East. If people are going to cheat, they are going to cheat. Handicap systems are not honesty police. Yet it is where many golfers, and even committees, start and finish in their thinking. Cheats will always find ways to exploit any system. Why the concern about handicap manipulators, when the system has no role in policing them ? The same characters are likely nundging their ball in the rough while 'identifying' it to a better lie, dropping 'innocently' from a path on the advantageous side rather than the nearest point of relief, or deciding after 10 minutes of looking for their ball, that since it wasnt found, it must be in the stream and so dropping one. Deal with that sort of thing as fellow golfers, rather than expecting a system which was designed on the basis that golfers are honest, to solve a cloudy ''bandit' problem.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

I guess it would all depend on his last 20 counting scores really. It would also depend on how well he plays in said open. No guarantees he's going to play well so it could all be for nought.

I get what people say about being called bandits but on the other side, why is it bad that someone like me would want all their scores to count. I just want to improve my Handicap and get it as low as possible. This system allows me to do that all year round if my club doesn't have many comps.

Ref you really last paragraph, I am not criticising you for putting in as many cards as you like. I'm not saying it is bad?
You are fully entitled to do that and good luck to you,
I am merely defending against the now increasing attitude that is criticising myself and others for not putting in casual rounds for handicap.
Something that didn't happen before WHS.

 

[HeftyHacker]

I've just been looking through my handicap record and I would definitely be higher if it was comps only because I haven't entered all that many comps with busy weekends and a young family.

As it stands I'll meet up with a mate, usually on a Sunday afternoon or midweek evening (in summer) and we'll chat whilst in the car park prior to the round and decide whether or not we fancy putting a card in or just having a social knock, with reloads, gimmies etc.

The result is I reckon my handicap is about 3 lower than what it would be if it was based on comps only as I seem to play better in that more relaxed environment (whilst abiding by the RoG).

I would agree though, no one should be chastising others for not putting cards in all the time. Its their prerogative, and golf is ultimately meant to be a fun a past time.

 

[badgergm]

Does it affect the scratch player and the 54 handicapper equally?

Probably not, but then again IMO the difference between such golfers is sufficiently large that any comparisons are pretty meaningless. And any attempt to have them in the same competition via handicapping system is misguided.

But leaving that aside, I have no objection to a slope being applied to PCC if the stats support it. I’m also interested In idea of more granular PCC. What I am against is a PCC that seems to be nowhere near reactive enough to actual scores.

 

[jimbob.someroo]

The linking of handicap manipulation to the handicap system is a red herring. Neither WHS, nor the previous system, have as goals, the elimination of handicap cheats. It is like criticising WHS because it really does little for peace in the middle East. If people are going to cheat, they are going to cheat. Handicap systems are not honesty police. Yet it is where many golfers, and even committees, start and finish in their thinking. Cheats will always find ways to exploit any system. Why the concern about handicap manipulators, when the system has no role in policing them ? The same characters are likely nundging their ball in the rough while 'identifying' it to a better lie, dropping 'innocently' from a path on the advantageous side rather than the nearest point of relief, or deciding after 10 minutes of looking for their ball, that since it wasnt found, it must be in the stream and so dropping one. Deal with that sort of thing as fellow golfers, rather than expecting a system which was designed on the basis that golfers are honest, to solve a cloudy ''bandit' problem.

This is a fantastic point. 90% of the negatives towards WHS in this thread have been based on what people think others might do (or might not do).

The lack of linking with other unions is a totally valid issue, as are a few others chucked about. But will never be able to get my head around some of the vitriol around WHS when it's pretty much exclusively based on people's fear that others might cheat ... Particularly when there's rules that are far more fragrantly broken - bad drops, 3+ mins for lost ball etc.

 

[Swango1980]

This is a fantastic point. 90% of the negatives towards WHS in this thread have been based on what people think others might do (or might not do).

The lack of linking with other unions is a totally valid issue, as are a few others chucked about. But will never be able to get my head around some of the vitriol around WHS when it's pretty much exclusively based on people's fear that others might cheat ... Particularly when there's rules that are far more fragrantly broken - bad drops, 3+ mins for lost ball etc.

There was some chat at our place that there were several people at our place who were only putting in scores for their bad rounds, as they realised their handicap went up very quickly once they lost any of their best 8 scores. Too early to tell what how WHS will impact people's mindset, however there could be a selection of people, like this, who quite like the idea of these rapid increases to handicap. Virtually any system can be cheated, of course, it is just that WHS is more rewarding for those types of people than the old system.