The First Year of WHS - Positives and Negatives

2blue

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Clearly I'm not understanding something.

There's three loops of 9 holes. Blackmoor, Lakes and High. I played Lakes as the first 9 and Blackmoor as the 2nd nine. I didn't play the same 9 holes twice. The pro in the shop said those two loops were for 18 holes, or Blackmoor for just the 9.
If you found these course combinations complicated then how did you get on with the S.I.'s? Each course being numbered from 1 to 9.
Yes, I'd agree that it appears you've registered for just 9 holes.
However, you have managed to choose a remarkably dry Nov to play one of N Leeds's best courses which in a normal Nov would have been pretty heavy going. :LOL::LOL:
 
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You've selected the 9 hole option instead of the 18. Rulefan has done the hard work for you, lesson learned.
It's not me, it's an issue with the app. They've emailed to say they've amended the course details, but now when I go to reassign the 9 hole loops one of 9 (High course) is missing from the list entirely 😂

They're in the process of fixing it....

I might not understand the hole loops and how they assign them but the app calculations weren't my doing 😉
 
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If you found these course combinations complicated then how did you get on with the S.I.'s? Each course being numbered from 1 to 9.
Yes, I'd agree that it appears you've registered for just 9 holes.
However, you have managed to choose a remarkably dry Nov to play one of N Leeds's best courses which in a normal Nov would have been pretty heavy going. :LOL::LOL:
Thankfully the app got those bits correct, so all good there.

It was a bit fresh, sunny and very windy. Course was in good condition, especially the greens, but soft on the fairways. I'd say it would be pretty unplayable with the usual amount of rain we get.

Played well though for an 84 👍
 

Imurg

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Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere - if it has then I've missed it.
As per an email from EG, if pre-registered rounds are not entered into the system in a timely manner....an automated penalty score will be applied to the handicap record.
A penalty score will be applied....that implies that they're going tomguess your score and add a bit....
Isn't this just playing into the hands of the Sandbagger?
How is this going to work?
The email says your HI could be adjusted up or down...again, are they going to guess your numbers?
Confused.......
 

Swango1980

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Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere - if it has then I've missed it.
As per an email from EG, if pre-registered rounds are not entered into the system in a timely manner....an automated penalty score will be applied to the handicap record.
A penalty score will be applied....that implies that they're going tomguess your score and add a bit....
Isn't this just playing into the hands of the Sandbagger?
How is this going to work?
The email says your HI could be adjusted up or down...again, are they going to guess your numbers?
Confused.......
I'm not 100% what the automatic penalty score will be, but I'm almost sure it will be a score equal to Course Rating + Course Handicap. This will actually usually result in a reduced handicap, as a score equal to your course handicap will become one of your top 8 and remove your 8th best score (I say usually, because occasionally you may be losing a very good score that WAS your 20th oldest).

Therefore, the penalty score should not result in increasing handicap and benefit sandbaggers.

However, I also assume these will be flagged to Committee so they can easily check when this occurs? They can then adjust the penalty score if appropriate, as per WHS guidance. For example, if they feel low handicappers are not returning a score from bad rounds (to keep a low handicap), they can set a penalty score equal to the players worst score in last 20. If they feel a player is not returning good scores as they do not want big decreases in handicap, they can set the penalty score equal to the players best score in 20.
 
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Penalty scores are 'recommended' to be course rating + handicap. But seem to be totally at the discretion of your handicap committee....

Seems to widen the gap even further between handicaps, now it can be different club to club, never mind country to country....

WHS indeed...
 

Swango1980

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Penalty scores are 'recommended' to be course rating + handicap. But seem to be totally at the discretion of your handicap committee....

Seems to widen the gap even further between handicaps, now it can be different club to club, never mind country to country....

WHS indeed...
I'd imagine most handicap committees will stick to the automatic penalty, and only apply a different penalty score if they have evidence to do so. This would almost certainly be because they know the player has not returned a score to either keep a higher handicap (intentionally fail to submit a good score) or keep a low handicap (intentionally fail to submit a bad score). In both cases, the Committee would also almost certainly give the player a heavy warning, because the above actions are clearly inappropriate.

Most NRs are likely down to things like forgetfulness, and so the automatic penalty score likely to be left as it is. Hopefully these NRs are still easily highlighted, so that Committees can remind / warn persistent offenders. The biggest issue is likely going to be at clubs where handicap Committees simply leave general play rounds and the tech to its own devices, and never really check what is going on. You could then get many players who constantly fail to submit scores and never get a warning (unless the tech is set up to pretty much put a big red flag of some sort next to such players)

I think the automatic penalty is likely to make WHS more consistent between clubs, rather than less. It is simply another safety net to deal with such issues. But, the Committee still need to act where appropriate. Pre WHS, handicaps were still at the discretion of the Committee. A prime example was at the Annual Review or Continuous Reviews. Some Committees actually failed to adhere to their duties, and did things such as force players to only hand in good scores from roll ups, or chop handicaps further for anyone that won a comp regardless of score (these are 2 examples I know happened at certain clubs). There are always going to be variations on how Committees do things, so hopefully most clubs, and your club have a well educated Committee who act with the best integrity that they can.
 
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I laughed when I read "you are expected to complete the round and attempt to make the best score possible at each hole"

The latter is totally unenforceable and can never be checked or verified, even by someone playing with you. Imagine the conversation....I think you missed that 2 foot putt deliberately, or, wasn't that shank an attempt to increase your score/handicap :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 
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I'd imagine most handicap committees will stick to the automatic penalty, and only apply a different penalty score if they have evidence to do so. This would almost certainly be because they know the player has not returned a score to either keep a higher handicap (intentionally fail to submit a good score) or keep a low handicap (intentionally fail to submit a bad score). In both cases, the Committee would also almost certainly give the player a heavy warning, because the above actions are clearly inappropriate.

Most NRs are likely down to things like forgetfulness, and so the automatic penalty score likely to be left as it is. Hopefully these NRs are still easily highlighted, so that Committees can remind / warn persistent offenders. The biggest issue is likely going to be at clubs where handicap Committees simply leave general play rounds and the tech to its own devices, and never really check what is going on. You could then get many players who constantly fail to submit scores and never get a warning (unless the tech is set up to pretty much put a big red flag of some sort next to such players)

I think the automatic penalty is likely to make WHS more consistent between clubs, rather than less. It is simply another safety net to deal with such issues. But, the Committee still need to act where appropriate. Pre WHS, handicaps were still at the discretion of the Committee. A prime example was at the Annual Review or Continuous Reviews. Some Committees actually failed to adhere to their duties, and did things such as force players to only hand in good scores from roll ups, or chop handicaps further for anyone that won a comp regardless of score (these are 2 examples I know happened at certain clubs). There are always going to be variations on how Committees do things, so hopefully most clubs, and your club have a well educated Committee who act with the best integrity that they can.
Not sure if our club is common or not, but we've got regular repeat offenders. The handicap committee continually unable to close comps as they've torn up their card, walked past and ignored the terminal and went home...

Without understanding the finer details, I'm not sure if this makes things better or worse? Just adding 0.1 everytime it happens seems alot easier...
 
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Not sure if our club is common or not, but we've got regular repeat offenders. The handicap committee continually unable to close comps as they've torn up their card, walked past and ignored the terminal and went home...

Without understanding the finer details, I'm not sure if this makes things better or worse? Just adding 0.1 everytime it happens seems alot easier...
The handicap committee should warn them, and then if they continue to do it, suspend them from competitions for a period of time.
 

Swango1980

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Not sure if our club is common or not, but we've got regular repeat offenders. The handicap committee continually unable to close comps as they've torn up their card, walked past and ignored the terminal and went home...

Without understanding the finer details, I'm not sure if this makes things better or worse? Just adding 0.1 everytime it happens seems alot easier...
This is why committees need to be even more on the ball now. No such thing as going up 0.1 for a bad round / no return
 

Swango1980

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I laughed when I read "you are expected to complete the round and attempt to make the best score possible at each hole"

The latter is totally unenforceable and can never be checked or verified, even by someone playing with you. Imagine the conversation....I think you missed that 2 foot putt deliberately, or, wasn't that shank an attempt to increase your score/handicap :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
Basically, it is asking players to play with integrity. It shouldn't have to be enforced if players have that integrity. If they don't, then I'm sure they could just as easily ignore the rules of golf let alone the rules of handicapping.

Also, if players start back handing short putts and missing them, it would be fairly easy for any of their playing partners to question them.
 
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I laughed when I read "you are expected to complete the round and attempt to make the best score possible at each hole"

The latter is totally unenforceable and can never be checked or verified, even by someone playing with you. Imagine the conversation....I think you missed that 2 foot putt deliberately, or, wasn't that shank an attempt to increase your score/handicap :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
It’s a key element of the approach of encouraging social golf to be used for handicapping purposes. And a major reason why that is a bad idea.
 

wjemather

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Not sure if our club is common or not, but we've got regular repeat offenders. The handicap committee continually unable to close comps as they've torn up their card, walked past and ignored the terminal and went home...

Without understanding the finer details, I'm not sure if this makes things better or worse? Just adding 0.1 everytime it happens seems alot easier...
Every club has (or had) repeat offenders. However, committees that have been doing their job will have educated their members and such things should be pretty rare at this point. If your club still has a problem, serious questions need to be asked of your committee.

0.1 each time may have been easier, but it was also completely arbitrary, being the same increase regardless of how many strokes above css+buffer was returned, and effectively encouraged no-returns of non-winning scores. Such habitual no-returners routinely wound up with much higher-handicaps than they should due to these missing buffer or better scores.
 
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I'm not 100% what the automatic penalty score will be, but I'm almost sure it will be a score equal to Course Rating + Course Handicap. This will actually usually result in a reduced handicap, as a score equal to your course handicap will become one of your top 8 and remove your 8th best score (I say usually, because occasionally you may be losing a very good score that WAS your 20th oldest).

Therefore, the penalty score should not result in increasing handicap and benefit sandbaggers.

However, I also assume these will be flagged to Committee so they can easily check when this occurs? They can then adjust the penalty score if appropriate, as per WHS guidance. For example, if they feel low handicappers are not returning a score from bad rounds (to keep a low handicap), they can set a penalty score equal to the players worst score in last 20. If they feel a player is not returning good scores as they do not want big decreases in handicap, they can set the penalty score equal to the players best score in 20.
I got a penalty score of 36 over par.
I was off 6 cap.
It took us 3 1/2 hours to play 11 holes so we walked off and put cards in the bin. (First offence )
They know that score will never count on my best 8 so seems a bit harsh.
Slow play is a major problem and lots of players walk off all the time.
But penalty scores won’t solve that old chestnut.
 
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Swango1980

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I got a penalty score of 36 over par.
I was off 6 cap.
It took us 3 1/2 hours to play 11 holes so we walked off and put cards in the bin. (First offence )
They know that score will never count on my best 8 so seems a bit harsh.
Slow play is a major problem and lots of players walk off all the time.
But penalty scores won’t solve that old chestnut.
That penalty score does not follow the guidelines. This was before automatic penalty scores came into effect, so presumably someone on Committee entered this score themselves?
 
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