The all things EV chat thread

[road2ruin]

Discussion is good but if you want to push people down a certain route, post 3049, you have to expect questions. Answer those questions, show us how worries are unfounded. If they are not then don't push.

You have said it before, electric is great for local journeys, less so for long distance. When that changes the argument for change becomes far stronger.

I think this is the crux of it and those arguing who are at the extremes in terms of their driving don't represent the majority of drivers. For example, I used to drive 500 miles a day so an EV would be completely impractical so I would never consider one however I also don't represent the normal driver so I don't think that my arguing against EV's is particularly useful. Maybe when the batteries have the range and the charging speed allows these sorts of drivers would be more catered for and it might be more practical.

Once you take these drivers out I do honestly think that an EV would be suitable for the vast majority of drivers who are able to have a home charger. I appreciate that not everyone has off street parking etc so my comment re. the high mileage lot also applies to them, as things stand it's probably not practical and public charging can get pretty expensive especially if you want to use a fast charger.

For those who do lots of local journey's and then a once/twice a year big trip e.g. Cornwall etc then an EV would make sense. Yes the longer trip would need more planning however that would account for a journey a year or so, the rest of the journeys of disappearing to Tesco, taking the kids to gymnastics or going to the golf courses are easily covered in the 'pootling about' category and having to charge would rarely be a consideration.

 

[Neilds]

Another issue to look at with putting chargers in public car parks is - are the great British public polite enough to use them sensibly? In order to best use them, you would need to park at a charger, and then move your car to another space when the charge is complete. If you park for work, are people actually going to return to their car halfway through the day to free up the charger or just hog it fo rthe rest of the day. Given the way the country is at the moment, I suspect i know what the answer will be.

 

[PJ87]

Another issue to look at with putting chargers in public car parks is - are the great British public polite enough to use them sensibly? In order to best use them, you would need to park at a charger, and then move your car to another space when the charge is complete. If you park for work, are people actually going to return to their car halfway through the day to free up the charger or just hog it fo rthe rest of the day. Given the way the country is at the moment, I suspect i know what the answer will be.

No they are not. In the slightest.

Chargers have built in idle charges so when your full some charge £1 a min or a flat £10 or something stupid so the app will let you know what time you will be at the % you want and then you go back and move it or drive off

However it's not ev drivers who are the problem it's everyone. Taking the daughter swimming the local car park has a Tesla super charger on the ground floor . Always a few ice cars in there. Need the car park to fine them. Same with EV aswell before anyone moans, if your not plugged in and in a charge bay I would expect to be fined

 

[Deleted member 23270]

I watched a news article the other day about the RAF trialing a new low emissions fuel for aircraft, 80% lower. If that technology filters down to cars then I can also see the 2030 date for end of new ICE vehicles being pushed back.

 

[spongebob59]

I watched a news article the other day about the RAF trialing a new low emissions fuel for aircraft, 80% lower. If that technology filters down to cars then I can also see the 2030 date for end of new ICE vehicles being pushed back.

That's the point the fair fuel UK group are making, trying to push everything down the electric route rather than allowing other solutions to develop.

 

[GreiginFife]

People just chucking barriers in to support their bias mate. I drove to Glen eagles and back that was 315 each way. I stopped at penrith, plugged in my car and had a 25 minute break in morrisons (crazy price for a breakfast BTW). On the way back I did the same in Carlisle. Even on a 250 mile one way journey who doesn't stop for a break on a 250 mile trip?

I'm not sure that it's about bias and more about use-case (albeit that your use-case will inform your bias) and people will tend to look at a given set of choices that suits their use-case (and why would they not). What we have to accept in these discussions is that no-one's use-case is universal. You don't think that their use-case related barriers make sense as you relate it back to your use-case and how it works for you, they don't think your use-case advantages make sense to them.

If we choose to ignore or reject this notion then all you are doing is arguing for the sake of it.

We also cannot ignore that, as Bob has pointed out several times, the infrastructure IS improving and smart people ARE working on improvements all the time, but likewise we cannot ignore that the rate of trickle down to realisation is, undoubtedly, painfully slow. This is amplified when you live away from mass urbanised centres such as cities.

It's simply not possible to argue that, because a certain scenario works for you that it will work for everyone and then say "ah well you're just putting up barriers". In some cases, barriers are well founded.

Usual caveats on opinions applies to all of the above. Others are available.

 

[PJ87]

I'm not sure that it's about bias and more about use-case (albeit that your use-case will inform your bias) and people will tend to look at a given set of choices that suits their use-case (and why would they not). What we have to accept in these discussions is that no-one's use-case is universal. You don't think that their use-case related barriers make sense as you relate it back to your use-case and how it works for you, they don't think your use-case advantages make sense to them.

If we choose to ignore or reject this notion then all you are doing is arguing for the sake of it.

We also cannot ignore that, as Bob has pointed out several times, the infrastructure IS improving and smart people ARE working on improvements all the time, but likewise we cannot ignore that the rate of trickle down to realisation is, undoubtedly, painfully slow. This is amplified when you live away from mass urbanised centres such as cities.

It's simply not possible to argue that, because a certain scenario works for you that it will work for everyone and then say "ah well you're just putting up barriers". In some cases, barriers are well founded.

Usual caveats on opinions applies to all of the above. Others are available.

The problem I find, which is always the case with tech, is people form their views/ opinions on one old fact they read say back in 2015 and they then continue to use that as fact and even tell others it as a "fact" which just spreads old myths

Some examples

"They need to standardise chargers" they have. Type 2 with CCS (leaf does have chademo but new ones are CCS Ie their new suv and future leaf remodels are going to be)

"Batteries end up in landfill" the batteries are given second life's at the end of their car life's . Repurposed as house batteries for example

"The grid isn't green so doesn't make a difference" burning gas for example to make electric is more efficient than burning a fossil fuel yourself to make energy

"EVs can't be towed or engaged to neutral" they can , mainly misunderstanding from the end user / break down service but that Tesla that blocked a car park in London you can enable tow mode.

"You can't use the heater it drains the battery" majority of EVs use heat pumps and pre condition so it uses very low energy to provide the heat .. you don't need to drive in a jumper

On other tech like solar

"They are useless in the winter" they still provide electric even in the winter yes it not as much better something is better than nothing

It's fine people asking questions about tech but it's when people pass old outdated statements as fact as of now it's just annoying.

Tech moves so fast you need to keep up with it

 

[hovis]

I'm not sure that it's about bias and more about use-case (albeit that your use-case will inform your bias) and people will tend to look at a given set of choices that suits their use-case (and why would they not). What we have to accept in these discussions is that no-one's use-case is universal. You don't think that their use-case related barriers make sense as you relate it back to your use-case and how it works for you, they don't think your use-case advantages make sense to them.

If we choose to ignore or reject this notion then all you are doing is arguing for the sake of it.

We also cannot ignore that, as Bob has pointed out several times, the infrastructure IS improving and smart people ARE working on improvements all the time, but likewise we cannot ignore that the rate of trickle down to realisation is, undoubtedly, painfully slow. This is amplified when you live away from mass urbanised centres such as cities.

It's simply not possible to argue that, because a certain scenario works for you that it will work for everyone and then say "ah well you're just putting up barriers". In some cases, barriers are well founded.

Usual caveats on opinions applies to all of the above. Others are available.

I'm specifically talking about the argument being made about the range and charging infrastructure. You've took my statement and ran with it. I will conceded the point that there are specific situations that rule people out from owning an eV (no off road parking for one) but the argument of "its not for me because I drive 500 miles a day" isn't a valid one. Its a simple solution but people just won't accept the reality. Blinkers on!!!!!!
People don't like change. Its clear from this post that some people will not accept the change no matter what the argument. They just see problems. As an eV owner that has driven the length of the country I can testify that all off the charging and range issues are easily resolved with minimal effort. I have to admit that life would be more difficult if I had a 200 mile range instead of my 300.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

It might take a decade or two but it may be the case that in future we all use EVs for local and shorter distance travel…for occasional longer distance driving we either take the train or hire EVs to drive to intermediate points and pick up another EV tp complete our jourhey. A bit like what they did for such as the ‘pony express’ way back in the day or indeed everywhere when travel was by horse-pulled stagecoach. For longer distances the passengers either changed coach, or the coach had a change of horses.

The model worked for,most people as for most people long distance travel was very rare - as in the future that may well become for most of us in day2day life and work.

 

[PJ87]

It might take a decade or two but it may be the case that in future we all use EVs for local and shorter distance travel…for occasional longer distance driving we either take the train or hire EVs to drive to intermediate points and pick up another EV tp complete our jourhey. A bit like what they did for such as the ‘pony express’ way back in the day or indeed everywhere when travel was by horse-pulled stagecoach. For longer distances the passengers either changed coach, or the coach had a change of horses.

The model worked for,most people as for most people long distance travel was very rare - as in the future that may well become for most of us in day2day life and work.

Another point I missed in my reply to @Lord Tyrion .. with the moving away from ice and climate change we need good public transport but it's being destroyed.

It needs investing in and made cheaper for end user not the reverse

 

[GreiginFife]

I'm specifically talking about the argument being made about the range and charging infrastructure. You've took my statement and ran with it. I will conceded the point that there are specific situations that rule people out from owning an eV (no off road parking for one) but the argument of "its not for me because I drive 500 miles a day" isn't a valid one. Its a simple solution but people just won't accept the reality. Blinkers on!!!!!!
People don't like change. Its clear from this post that some people will not accept the change no matter what the argument. They just see problems. As an eV owner that has driven the length of the country I can testify that all off the charging and range issues are easily resolved with minimal effort. I have to admit that life would be more difficult if I had a 200 mile range instead of my 300.

Again, you equate this to what works for you. You state that "it's not valid" to argue that driving 500 miles is problematic. Maybe not for you, but it may be for their use-case. And it's certainly not up to me to state what is or isn't a valid issue for anyone, you may feel that you have that right.

There are blinkers on both sides. Just because you fervently support one thing doesn't mean that you aren't blinkered just like the opposing view. This is what amuses me about these discussions, you are either pro or anti and nothing in between. And if you are anti, then you are somehow wrong on all counts.

I will point out that I work in delivering change, I propose, design and deliver change on an almost daily basis so I am certainly not anti-change. People WILL accept change (to say otherwise would mean that we would not have advanced at all), but like everything, change must meet certain conditions in order for it to be successful or acceptable. Someone saying "it works, because I say so and it works for me" does not a successful nor acceptable change make.

In many cases where people see problems, its because the problem manifestly exists (it may only exist for their use-case, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist).

I will also point out that I am not anti-EV, I am currently waiting for one (current delivery Sept 2023). I am in a position where I don't drive long distances and I have the ability to charge at home. If I did do long distances then I would need to consider the factors in balance.

We seem to be beyond rational debate when it comes to people having opposing views in society these days.

as I say, all of the above and my previous is opinion. I'm not going to argue with someone about my opinion on any subject. But rather than call people blinkered or fearful of change, I like to think that I try to rationalise that opinion a little.

 

[hovis]

Again, you equate this to what works for you. You state that "it's not valid" to argue that driving 500 miles is problematic. Maybe not for you, but it may be for their use-case. And it's certainly not up to me to state what is or isn't a valid issue for anyone, you may feel that you have that right.

There are blinkers on both sides. Just because you fervently support one thing doesn't mean that you aren't blinkered just like the opposing view. This is what amuses me about these discussions, you are either pro or anti and nothing in between. And if you are anti, then you are somehow wrong on all counts.

I will point out that I work in delivering change, I propose, design and deliver change on an almost daily basis so I am certainly not anti-change. People WILL accept change (to say otherwise would mean that we would not have advanced at all), but like everything, change must meet certain conditions in order for it to be successful or acceptable. Someone saying "it works, because I say so and it works for me" does not a successful nor acceptable change make.

In many cases where people see problems, its because the problem manifestly exists (it may only exist for their use-case, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist).

I will also point out that I am not anti-EV, I am currently waiting for one (current delivery Sept 2023). I am in a position where I don't drive long distances and I have the ability to charge at home. If I did do long distances then I would need to consider the factors in balance.

We seem to be beyond rational debate when it comes to people having opposing views in society these days.

as I say, all of the above and my previous is opinion. I'm not going to argue with someone about my opinion on any subject. But rather than call people blinkered or fearful of change, I like to think that I try to rationalise that opinion a little.

I'm not saying it's what works "for me" at all. I'm stating that if you have off road parking then driving 500 miles a day (for anyone) is not a problem and therefore is a argument you can't use. Even if you live on the Isle of sky. If a person wants to use an argument that they don't have the time to pull over for 40 minutes over a 500 journey then I still won't hear it as that is incredibly irresponsible and dangerous. I scape people off the road for a living so I know the dangers off driving long distances. You have to eat at some point

It may seem like I have opposing blinkers on, I don't. I'm just hearing argument on something that's not an issue. You may have noticed that I haven't tried to defend evs' when it comes to off road parking and low capacity batteries!!!! That's because its a valid argument

 

[Imurg]

Just over 2 years ago I wrote the first reply to this thread.
Due to my temporary retirement we are now both in the position that EV would be perfect.
But nothing else has changed..both cars are still paid for, both running well with loads of miles left in them.
The cost to change is massively prohibitive.
What's the 2nd hand market like?
Are many, rightly or wrong, a bit vary of buying 2nd hand?
So the answer to the question in the title is still - No.....

 

[hovis]

Just over 2 years ago I wrote the first reply to this thread.
Due to my temporary retirement we are now both in the position that EV would be perfect.
But nothing else has changed..both cars are still paid for, both running well with loads of miles left in them.
The cost to change is massively prohibitive.
What's the 2nd hand market like?
Are many, rightly or wrong, a bit vary of buying 2nd hand?
So the answer to the question in the title is still - No.....

I still have 1 ice car in my house. Its not worth the change for me until I "need" a new car. But even then, unless the an eV car is within my budget 10k I can't afford one

 

[GreiginFife]

I'm not saying it's what works "for me" at all. I'm stating that if you have off road parking then driving 500 miles a day (for anyone) is not a problem and therefore is a argument you can't use. Even if you live on the Isle of sky. If a person wants to use an argument that they don't have the time to pull over for 40 minutes over a 500 journey then I still won't hear it as that is incredibly irresponsible and dangerous. I scape people off the road for a living so I know the dangers off driving long distances. You have to eat at some point

It may seem like I have opposing blinkers on, I don't. I'm just hearing argument on something that's not an issue. You may have noticed that I haven't tried to defend evs' when it comes to off road parking and low capacity batteries!!!! That's because its a valid argument

We'll agree to disagree on this as it appears that it's exactly what you are saying. Why is 500 miles not an issue? Who are you to decide that it's not just because it's not to you? Unless the car has a greater than 500 mile range then it is going to put a barrier to completing that journey. How easy or difficult that barrier is to overcome is not for you or I to decide. It's for the person that is faced with it relative to their requirements. You see, in change, requirements are everything.

I appreciate that you have not countered on off street or low cap batteries, but surely the answer to these would be a) move house and get off street parking and b) buy a car with a higher capacity battery. These are not barriers that can't be over come.

Ok, I appreciate that's a tad facetious but it works in all directions.

I'll let the conversation flow back it's normal course again now and bow out. I'll get my i4 in 2023 (maybe) and join the EV revolution (will still be keeping the nutty M340i though).

 

[Deleted member 23270]

We'll agree to disagree on this as it appears that it's exactly what you are saying. Why is 500 miles not an issue? Who are you to decide that it's not just because it's not to you? Unless the car has a greater than 500 mile range then it is going to put a barrier to completing that journey. How easy or difficult that barrier is to overcome is not for you or I to decide. It's for the person that is faced with it relative to their requirements. You see, in change, requirements are everything.

I appreciate that you have not countered on off street or low cap batteries, but surely the answer to these would be a) move house and get off street parking and b) buy a car with a higher capacity battery. These are not barriers that can't be over come.

Ok, I appreciate that's a tad facetious but it works in all directions.

I'll let the conversation flow back it's normal course again now and bow out. I'll get my i4 in 2023 (maybe) and join the EV revolution (will still be keeping the nutty M340i though).

Yeah it is a tad facetious when you've got 100k worth of cars on your drive. Most of us aren't in your position.

 

[GreiginFife]

Yeah it is a tad facetious when you've got 100k worth of cars on your drive. Most of us aren't in your position.

It was more to highlight that just because it works for me (or could work for me) that it's not suitable for all.

Clumsily made point, but a point none-the-less.

 

[hovis]

We'll agree to disagree on this as it appears that it's exactly what you are saying. Why is 500 miles not an issue? Who are you to decide that it's not just because it's not to you? Unless the car has a greater than 500 mile range then it is going to put a barrier to completing that journey. How easy or difficult that barrier is to overcome is not for you or I to decide. It's for the person that is faced with it relative to their requirements. You see, in change, requirements are everything.

I appreciate that you have not countered on off street or low cap batteries, but surely the answer to these would be a) move house and get off street parking and b) buy a car with a higher capacity battery. These are not barriers that can't be over come.

Ok, I appreciate that's a tad facetious but it works in all directions.

I'll let the conversation flow back it's normal course again now and bow out. I'll get my i4 in 2023 (maybe) and join the EV revolution (will still be keeping the nutty M340i though).

Give me one reason why a 500 mile round trip would cause a problem to anyone with off road parking? Like a said, I won't except not stopping for a short time as an issue. It's simply not safe.

 

[oxymoron]

We'll agree to disagree on this as it appears that it's exactly what you are saying. Why is 500 miles not an issue? Who are you to decide that it's not just because it's not to you? Unless the car has a greater than 500 mile range then it is going to put a barrier to completing that journey. How easy or difficult that barrier is to overcome is not for you or I to decide. It's for the person that is faced with it relative to their requirements. You see, in change, requirements are everything.

I appreciate that you have not countered on off street or low cap batteries, but surely the answer to these would be a) move house and get off street parking and b) buy a car with a higher capacity battery. These are not barriers that can't be over come.

Ok, I appreciate that's a tad facetious but it works in all directions.

I'll let the conversation flow back it's normal course again now and bow out. I'll get my i4 in 2023 (maybe) and join the EV revolution (will still be keeping the nutty M340i though).

I have followed this with interest and broadly agree with you , however this bit i highlighted is making me chuckle , there are only so many houses with off road parking and someone will move in to the one you sold with no parking ,
however why cant some sort of device be constructed like one of those security posts you lift out of the ground when you need it ? If i could get this sort of thing i would get an EV in an instant ( we live in a terraced house) .
Like you said earlier there are ways around the issues of charging but there are ways round them as well if we could just focus on solutions not problems.

 

[PJ87]

I have followed this with interest and broadly agree with you , however this bit i highlighted is making me chuckle , there are only so many houses with off road parking and someone will move in to the one you sold with no parking ,
however why cant some sort of device be constructed like one of those security posts you lift out of the ground when you need it ? If i could get this sort of thing i would get an EV in an instant ( we live in a terraced house) .
Like you said earlier there are ways around the issues of charging but there are ways round them as well if we could just focus on solutions not problems.

They are on the way but then people moan about leads trailing around being health and safety Hazard