Swingplane.

[kid2]

Ok.
Id love to hear some stories about how you've either changed yours or have stuck with what you have..
I've hit a bit of a wall improvement wise and to get lower I feel I need to make a pretty sizable change to my swing..
Most probably think I'm mad anyway but its definitely what's holding me back.. I love my fade but struggle really badly when the wind gets up. It's gotten worse over the past 8 weeks or so where the 0.1's have been stacking up. That doesn't really bother me though. One good round would take care of that.

So I've decided to dig in for the long haul now.
I heard various stories of how players games went totally sideways after a big change..
But I've also heard that after a few months of big scores and playing like a hack and sweat and years have seen a dramatic effect on some people's games..
I've done the blades thing and currently have Mizuno Mp32's.
But I'm not anything close to a good ball striker. So I've decided to treat myself to a set of Ping G25's just for a bit of security of nothing else..

Is such a big change worth the lack of confidence and the time and effort that's needed.
As the season is starting to wind down I think now is the right time to get things going so that I can drive on and hopefully get down to 2 or 3.

 

[Hosel Fade]

I think plane is the pre launch monitor version of path because its very easy to see on a video. See a professional with a monitor for a lesson and have a chat about it

 

[kid2]

I think plane is the pre launch monitor version of path because its very easy to see on a video. See a professional with a monitor for a lesson and have a chat about it

Probably should have posted swing path..
I go left pretty quick through impact.. I always have.. ever since I started playing... 3 years ago I decided to go for a series of 8 lessons and try as he did my coach just could not get me to swing more down the line. I just couldn't do it.. it feels completely unnatural to me.. I spent probably 18 months at it.. It did neutralize a small bit what I got it to a manageablefade flight..
But lately it has got a bit bad..
I've always tried to setup with square lines rather than open or closed to target to allow for the shape. But I think that this may be stopping me from swinging the way I should.

 

[Region3]

How about setting up closed and aiming the face at target. That way going left through impact will produce a straighter shot.

Alternatively, stick a stick in the ground at the same angle as your shaft at address and about 3' to your right (away from target).

In slow motion you have to take the club back outside it and swing down inside it.

Doing this for a couple of weeks got me from around 4° from the outside to 4° from the inside.
Too far granted so I'm working on somewhere in between now but it's proof that it works.

The thing I find is that I have to find a feeling for myself, so rather than the pro telling me what I should feel he makes me do the right move by other means and I decide what it feels like.

 

[Maninblack4612]

Probably should have posted swing path..
I go left pretty quick through impact.. I always have.. ever since I started playing... 3 years ago I decided to go for a series of 8 lessons and try as he did my coach just could not get me to swing more down the line. I just couldn't do it.. it feels completely unnatural to me.. I spent probably 18 months at it.. It did neutralize a small bit what I got it to a manageablefade flight..
But lately it has got a bit bad..
I've always tried to setup with square lines rather than open or closed to target to allow for the shape. But I think that this may be stopping me from swinging the way I should.

According to Jim Hardy in "The Plane Truth", if you've got a one plane swing, going left after impact is exactly what you should do. If your swing is relatively flat & you swing the club behind you swinging down the line is the last thing you want to do.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Had lessons about four winters back and started to pursue the Plane Truth in conjunction with a teaching pro that was certified and started on a one plane swing. It was good when it was good but I struggled with consistency (and tempo) and it morphed into a two plane swing I have now. The Plane Truth book is a brilliant reference. It could be a long haul as the OP is aware off. I hope he gets to where he wants to go with it

 

[kid2]

According to Jim Hardy in "The Plane Truth", if you've got a one plane swing, going left after impact is exactly what you should do. If your swing is relatively flat & you swing the club behind you swinging down the line is the last thing you want to do.

I'm definitely one plane mate.
And I've read all that about Jim Hardy.

Have to divot pattern and everything. Curved divots that go left indicating an in to in swingpath...
It's probably the reason why sometimes I hit a draw out of nowhere and can't figure out why..
All I'm looking for is consistency of shape so that I can at least take one side out of play..

 

[duncan mackie]

So 3 years ago you set out to make this change...and 18 months later you concluded it wasn't going to work (feel right/become natural/deliver etc).

Sounds like you have the most pertinent story all ready - your own.

Fwiw I set out on the advice of one pro to increase my shoulder turn and swing more upright. I had a flattish swing with a relatively consistent draw that occasional became a hook (the real fault causing this being hitting from the top when 'going for it'.)

5 years later I've gone from a competitive 8 to 12, still duck hook for the same reason, and can now hit it both straight, and with a slight fade. I can also hit a big slice. None of these are controlled at will shots. That pro is long gone, and the others all think I should just accept the limitations of my body and work well within them. Sadly I've now forgotten how I used to swing and the concept of redeveloping a flawed swing seems somewhat bizarre!

Younare a lot, lot, younger but be careful what you wish for when trying to implement changes that have already had a lot of effort that failed to deliver.

 

[the_coach]

my take having experience of moving through Cat 1 index down to scratch & out up the otherside

first off you gotta have quantifiable evidence of the areas of the game that's truly part of the issue that scores are ways too erratic - data from the tee-box, into the greens with particular reference to distance from the pin, putting stats, scrambling stats, sand saves etc
only through knowing this stuff for sure can stuff be attempted to convert it into better scoring

you hitting draws or fades through the relationship to face angle and swing direction, attack angle through impact, and ball position within stance can play into that along with ground slope (side slope, down slope, up slope) with a big factor being sequence timing

"swingplane" coined many moons ago to 'try' to simplify talk about how the golf motion moves the club - but for sure it's also been the 'author' of a whole bunch of misconceptions folks have over the golf swing

the 'swingplane' of a motion below the hip line is different to the 'swingplane' above the hip line, the backswing 'swingplane' is different to the downswing 'swingplane' - downswing 'swingplane' above the hip line is different to the downswing delivery 'swingplane' or swing direction

the "swingplane" of the hubpath/the handpath is different to the swingplane of the clubhead within the same swing motion - to "swingplane' is entirely 'relative' to a whole bunch of stuff

there's no point working on any 'motion' or 'positions' in the swing unless it has real relevance to a tangible improvement in impact conditions

mostly ways folks get lower scores once certain level of Cat 1 been reached is through improvements in decision making during play along with better emotional control, plus better short game from particularly say 80 yards in along with improvement with the flat stick
as well as training practice, lesson practice, got to get out to play to practice 'scoring' in competition

if folks 'stuck' at a plateau within Cat 1 & been stuck there for a good bunch of time then for sure would be time for a fresh pair of eyes to look over the game during play as there will be an issue with decision making along with whatever 'technical stuff' needs looking into
- & with a Pro identifying (with the quantifiable back up of data) what's goin to help better impact conditions could be that it's minor not major surgery needed in the swing motion itself - could be set-up changes needed along with a little ways different approach to thinking out in play, and changes to lone training practices and where the emphasis of that training practice would be better employed

my take find a PGA teaching Pro who has got a proven track record with Cat 1 players and who uses a Launch Monitor so you got quantifiable evidence, data, that is telling you what 'impact conditions' produce the best shot outcomes - knowing the right and best 'numbers' for folks own swing motions and repeating these breeds 'feel' that can be repeated

- real important thing about all of this is it doesn't just rely on the pure numbers - but through repetition of those 'best launch condition' numbers folks can get a real and tangible and importantly repeatable 'feel' of the motion that leads to producing those numbers and more consistent swing sequence motions, impact and shot outcomes

- useful to for lone training practice if say you got something like a Zepp with App you can read off the parameter of data that also shows up when you hit and compare that to the goldilocks launch monitor numbers during lessons - you have a real benchmark to work to
- so then along with cell fone video in training you have a window of Zepp data to reproduce during the training practice and again repeating those 'feels' that go hand in hand with the quantifiable data

- for sure this is the only real ways to shorten the time it takes to effect the changes that would be necessary to produce better impact conditions as just relying 'feel to real' alone for most folks won't produce what they need (that doesn't even work for a larger percentage of the Tour Pros who hit many more golf balls) - if that wasn't the case folks would not get real stuck at whatever level they stuck on with an inability to change what would be necessary to change to improve

 

[kid2]

So 3 years ago you set out to make this change...and 18 months later you concluded it wasn't going to work (feel right/become natural/deliver etc).

Sounds like you have the most pertinent story all ready - your own.

Fwiw I set out on the advice of one pro to increase my shoulder turn and swing more upright. I had a flattish swing with a relatively consistent draw that occasional became a hook (the real fault causing this being hitting from the top when 'going for it'.)

5 years later I've gone from a competitive 8 to 12, still duck hook for the same reason, and can now hit it both straight, and with a slight fade. I can also hit a big slice. None of these are controlled at will shots. That pro is long gone, and the others all think I should just accept the limitations of my body and work well within them. Sadly I've now forgotten how I used to swing and the concept of redeveloping a flawed swing seems somewhat bizarre!

Younare a lot, lot, younger but be careful what you wish for when trying to implement changes that have already had a lot of effort that failed to deliver.

This post means a lot Duncan. Thank you...
I've got this wired knack of being able to swing a few ways. But very rarely am I able to produce a draw at will.. I always seen to think it happens accidently...

12 months ago I was on our practice range.. riddled with tension and "hitting" at the ball.. heard loads of info able how we all should swing easy and hit further.

So I started fishing for swings on the net... I've always admired Dufner for how simple his swing looks..
So I dive a bit deeper and to be honest I have a very similar build maybe a bit thinner😁 but I get into nearly all the same positions as he does in the backswing...
So I started trying to copy everything.. from the kick of the right knee slightly at the start of the swing to the slight caddy drag in the hands at takeaway... I also had the right right elbow at the top of the backswing and the flat left wrist... I'm prone though to coming out of the shot early and hitting tops at times.. which as you can imagine doesn't cut well when you have only 5 shots to play with..
It was the follow through and the downswing sequence where I was struggling... hips are a bit slow...
Funnily with this swing I was hitting the ball either straight or with a slight draw or fade.. but for the most past I was aiming pretty straight..

It was heavily tempo and timing dependent though...
Where I struggled with it was wedge control..
I worked hard on 3 positions for each of my wedges to give me 3 specific distances. But the swing felt so loose and fluid I just couldn't seem to stop at the right positions in the backswing to control the distance the ball went..
So I'm now at a crossroads .

 

[kid2]

my take having experience of moving through Cat 1 index down to scratch & out up the otherside

first off you gotta have quantifiable evidence of the areas of the game that's truly part of the issue that scores are ways too erratic - data from the tee-box, into the greens with particular reference to distance from the pin, putting stats, scrambling stats, sand saves etc
only through knowing this stuff for sure can stuff be attempted to convert it into better scoring

you hitting draws or fades through the relationship to face angle and swing direction, attack angle through impact, and ball position within stance can play into that along with ground slope (side slope, down slope, up slope) with a big factor being sequence timing

"swingplane" coined many moons ago to 'try' to simplify talk about how the golf motion moves the club - but for sure it's also been the 'author' of a whole bunch of misconceptions folks have over the golf swing

the 'swingplane' of a motion below the hip line is different to the 'swingplane' above the hip line, the backswing 'swingplane' is different to the downswing 'swingplane' - downswing 'swingplane' above the hip line is different to the downswing delivery 'swingplane' or swing direction

the "swingplane" of the hubpath/the handpath is different to the swingplane of the clubhead within the same swing motion - to "swingplane' is entirely 'relative' to a whole bunch of stuff

there's no point working on any 'motion' or 'positions' in the swing unless it has real relevance to a tangible improvement in impact conditions

mostly ways folks get lower scores once certain level of Cat 1 been reached is through improvements in decision making during play along with better emotional control, plus better short game from particularly say 80 yards in along with improvement with the flat stick
as well as training practice, lesson practice, got to get out to play to practice 'scoring' in competition

if folks 'stuck' at a plateau within Cat 1 & been stuck there for a good bunch of time then for sure would be time for a fresh pair of eyes to look over the game during play as there will be an issue with decision making along with whatever 'technical stuff' needs looking into
- & with a Pro identifying (with the quantifiable back up of data) what's goin to help better impact conditions could be that it's minor not major surgery needed in the swing motion itself - could be set-up changes needed along with a little ways different approach to thinking out in play, and changes to lone training practices and where the emphasis of that training practice would be better employed

my take find a PGA teaching Pro who has got a proven track record with Cat 1 players and who uses a Launch Monitor so you got quantifiable evidence, data, that is telling you what 'impact conditions' produce the best shot outcomes - knowing the right and best 'numbers' for folks own swing motions and repeating these breeds 'feel' that can be repeated

- real important thing about all of this is it doesn't just rely on the pure numbers - but through repetition of those 'best launch condition' numbers folks can get a real and tangible and importantly repeatable 'feel' of the motion that leads to producing those numbers and more consistent swing sequence motions, impact and shot outcomes

- useful to for lone training practice if say you got something like a Zepp with App you can read off the parameter of data that also shows up when you hit and compare that to the goldilocks launch monitor numbers during lessons - you have a real benchmark to work to
- so then along with cell fone video in training you have a window of Zepp data to reproduce during the training practice and again repeating those 'feels' that go hand in hand with the quantifiable data

- for sure this is the only real ways to shorten the time it takes to effect the changes that would be necessary to produce better impact conditions as just relying 'feel to real' alone for most folks won't produce what they need (that doesn't even work for a larger percentage of the Tour Pros who hit many more golf balls) - if that wasn't the case folks would not get real stuck at whatever level they stuck on with an inability to change what would be necessary to change to improve

Thanks for taking so much time to write all that...
At the moment I'm now practising with a 10" piece of 4"x 2" block of wood 2 inchs outside my ball.. if I come over the top the block of wood gets a belt at the back... A bit agricultural I know but here's the thing.. I now feel stange swinging this way but my divots are straight at my target and are a quarter of the depth that were and the ball is either going straight or a little right to left with a draw...
Also now my miss is a push to the right...

But I'm struggling to take it to the course as in the post above. There is never if ever a perfect lie. 😀

 

[the_coach]

Thanks for taking so much time to write all that...
At the moment I'm now practising with a 10" piece of 4"x 2" block of wood 2 inchs outside my ball.. if I come over the top the block of wood gets a belt at the back... A bit agricultural I know but here's the thing.. I now feel stange swinging this way but my divots are straight at my target and are a quarter of the depth that were and the ball is either going straight or a little right to left with a draw...
Also now my miss is a push to the right...

But I'm struggling to take it to the course as in the post above. There is never if ever a perfect lie. 

can help in training to use stuff to restrict swing direction to impact - in to in, in to tad out is goin to be little ways shallower AoA so less ground taken with those swing directions through impact ball starting rightfield some is that's the ways the face angle is looking at strike with the path tad more rightfield then you got draw, if face angle matches up with path rightfield you get push

so given the wood block restricting swing direction the other variable is the face angle rate of closure - so in effect what in the swing motion is more responsible for the rotation of the clubhead - the more reliably consistent ways to achieve this is through body motion sequence control - the less reliably consistent ways is through hands/arms

so could be the issue is more one of control of clubface as opposed to path issue could be more related to body sequence along with arm connection - only real ways to get a handle on this is GC2 + HMT with video or the newer 3D imaging systems

different ways maybes to consider stuff is lots of folks look to get to a near neutral swing direction through impact understandable as with similar face angle shot outcomes goin to be pretty straight - so folks think all good - but if the natural swing tendency isn't to near neutral for whatever swing motion reasons - swingin to be near 0º it's pretty easy to only be couple of degrees out but if one swing it's +2º, +3º in direction with a variable club face angle or then it's -2º,-3º in direction again with a variable face angle folks goin to be missing leftfield and rightfield pretty often - so standing over the ball in play not knowing which side of target the miss may be one shot to the next -especially with the pressure of a competition card goin

get may not be possible for folks, but for sure a Pro used to looking at players at the sharper end of the index ladder and using that kinda launch monitor or 3D system will be able to identify what the real route cause of the strike issue is how that relates to motion and control of the club, is goin to be the quickest route to improvement - that along with on course lessons looking at the mental side of shot selection and target selection and guidance with good practice training regimes

looking at it objectively so far how the route to improvement has gone over the years so far got you down to where the game is now but now it's plateaued out some overtime

my take would be to bite the bullet and go the Pro with GC2+HMT route and maybes then the answer will lie in building a motion that makes use of the more natural out to in swing direction but that along with little ways better release patterns to control both face angle and dynamic loft along with AoA to take one side of the course out of play but still get good trajectory and distance with a little ways better release and dynamic loft - especially if distance is pretty reasonable so no real need to hit draw shape for that, tweak a draw into a hook on landing that ball goin ways more into trouble than a ball with a left/right descent shape

so all that plus better course management, training practice and short game 80 yards in and on the green goin to give the best opportunity of more consistent lower scores so the index drop would come along with that - thing above all is not to focus on the index

 

[huds1475]

can help in training to use stuff to restrict swing direction to impact - in to in, in to tad out is goin to be little ways shallower AoA so less ground taken with those swing directions through impact ball starting rightfield some is that's the ways the face angle is looking at strike with the path tad more rightfield then you got draw, if face angle matches up with path rightfield you get push

so given the wood block restricting swing direction the other variable is the face angle rate of closure - so in effect what in the swing motion is more responsible for the rotation of the clubhead - the more reliably consistent ways to achieve this is through body motion sequence control - the less reliably consistent ways is through hands/arms

so could be the issue is more one of control of clubface as opposed to path issue could be more related to body sequence along with arm connection - only real ways to get a handle on this is GC2 + HMT with video or the newer 3D imaging systems

different ways maybes to consider stuff is lots of folks look to get to a near neutral swing direction through impact understandable as with similar face angle shot outcomes goin to be pretty straight - so folks think all good - but if the natural swing tendency isn't to near neutral for whatever swing motion reasons - swingin to be near 0º it's pretty easy to only be couple of degrees out but if one swing it's +2º, +3º in direction with a variable club face angle or then it's -2º,-3º in direction again with a variable face angle folks goin to be missing leftfield and rightfield pretty often - so standing over the ball in play not knowing which side of target the miss may be one shot to the next -especially with the pressure of a competition card goin

get may not be possible for folks, but for sure a Pro used to looking at players at the sharper end of the index ladder and using that kinda launch monitor or 3D system will be able to identify what the real route cause of the strike issue is how that relates to motion and control of the club, is goin to be the quickest route to improvement - that along with on course lessons looking at the mental side of shot selection and target selection and guidance with good practice training regimes

looking at it objectively so far how the route to improvement has gone over the years so far got you down to where the game is now but now it's plateaued out some overtime

my take would be to bite the bullet and go the Pro with GC2+HMT route and maybes then the answer will lie in building a motion that makes use of the more natural out to in swing direction but that along with little ways better release patterns to control both face angle and dynamic loft along with AoA to take one side of the course out of play but still get good trajectory and distance with a little ways better release and dynamic loft - especially if distance is pretty reasonable so no real need to hit draw shape for that, tweak a draw into a hook on landing that ball goin ways more into trouble than a ball with a left/right descent shape

so all that plus better course management, training practice and short game 80 yards in and on the green goin to give the best opportunity of more consistent lower scores so the index drop would come along with that - thing above all is not to focus on the index

Sounds easy

 

[delc]

I have a rather flat swing plane with a tendency to be a bit in to out through the impact area. Problems with this are a tendency to hook the ball to the left or alternatively a push to the right. I also don't normally take divots, just brushing the grass at the bottom of the arc. My pro is trying to get me to swing a bit more upright with a more straight back take away, which feels miles outside the line to me!