Stack and tilt: let's have a heated debate

[Monty_Brown]

So I took the plunge and gave the S&T principles a first outing at the range over the weekend. I was really impressed with it for first efforts.

Definitely felt like the ball-striking was more solid and gaiend a few yards distance through the strike quality without having to go after the ball.

I really liked the self-diagnosis section in the book. My bad ones were pushes or over-draws/hooks. Quick check of the fault trees in there and I could tweak set-up and a few bits and bobs to counteract the problems.

Obviously first time out there are going to be plenty of elements to work on, but I would say it is worth pursuing. I'm impressed.

 

[Oddsocks]

Monty, what was the name of the book?

 

[One Planer]

Monty, what was the name of the book?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stack-Tilt-Swing-Definitive-Remaking/dp/1592404472

 

[Oddsocks]

The con's have been.
More weight on my left knee than is usual.
More lower back pain (lumbar region)
A tendency to hook the ball.

I am not sure I will continue with it.
I think it put's more stress on your left knee through weight & twisting.
Also because you tend to come down on the ball at a sharper angle & turn faster I find it hurts my lower back.

these were my main concerns with the S&M swing

I suffer alot through no acl and damaged cartlidge in the left knee, and i dont think S&M would help it in any manor...

 

[CMAC]

these were my main concerns with the S&M swing

I suffer alot through no acl and damaged cartlidge in the left knee, and i dont think S&M would help it in any manor...

S&M definitly won't help it, you might enjoy it more though:thup:

 

[Oddsocks]

im just going on what justone said to me by PM.

"oddsocks,

if your struggling im more than happy to offer a few hours on the practice ground showing you the basics of S&M "

was he trying to groom me!

 

[One Planer]

im just going on what justone said to me by PM.

"oddsocks,

if your struggling im more than happy to offer a few hours on the practice ground showing you the basics of S&M "

was he trying to groom me!

OO'-Er' missis

 

[DaveM]

Think its great that people try differant swings. Its the only way to learn. I had to rebiuld my swing this year due to a long time off with injury. Tried S&T mind S&M sounds more fun. Found it agravated my injurys to much. But the swing did work but not for me. Based most of my new swing on the book " The 7 laws of the golf swing" it deals more with the biomecanical side of the swing. I have found I can fit it around my injuries without to much pain. But please keep updates lads on how you are getting on with S&T.

 

[One Planer]

As per DaveM's request for updates (...... So blame him :whoo, I thought rather than start a new thread, I'd just tag my blurb in here.

After shooting my lowest round for a long time (80) after going back to S&T 2 weeks ago I have spent alot of time reading the book and hitting balls at the range. Went to the range straight from work last night, 1 basket of 100 balls. All balls hit of the matt. Not tee'd up.

Long irons:

My bad shot previously was a push fade and, if I really went after it, a slice. Since going back to S&T I've worked on a better transition at the top and a smoother tempo to my swing.

My regular shot shape was either straight, or straight whith a gentle fade (5 Yards). Since changing my swing, my regular shape is straight or a gentle draw, again around 5 yards.

My bad shot previously was a push fade and, if I really went after it, a slice. Since going back to S&T I've worked on a better transition at the top and a smoother tempo to my swing. My bad shot is now a low hook, but again, only happens when I try and muller the ball. I also have a tendancy (When trying to club the skin off it) of getting a little "armsy" and leading the swing with my arms exaggerateing the hook.


Mid irons:

Again my regular shot was straight with again a gentle fade. Bad shot, again, was a push fade right. Over the last few visits to the range my mid irons have been straight with the 6 and 7 iron getting a hint of draw but not to the same level as the longer 4 and 5 irons.

My bad shot with these, again is a low hook, but as previous only when I try and club the skin off it.

Short Irons and wedges:

I have never really suffered with the shorter clubs and have always made decent, ball first contact with the shorter clubs. The once thing I have noticed, particularly with the wedges is how much additional height I'm getting. Ball flight appears to be alot higher than with my previous swing and, this is just a feeling more than a swing change, they feel easier to hit.

To be honest I think alot of my bad shots and poor strikes are down to alignment issues and maybe me being a litte lazy at set-up. I'm just waiting on Santa for some new tour sticks to help with this.


That's pretty much where I'm at. I'm playing 18 holes (weather permitting) at the weekend so hopefully another low score :whoo:

As a side question, maybe one for James this. I've noticed that if I use my old ball position I tend to hit noticably more hooks. If I move my ball position forward, only slightly, I get a good ball flight as stated above. Does this sound about right?

Should the ball position move forward fractionally for S&T?

 

[Monty_Brown]

As a side question, maybe one for James this. I've noticed that if I use my old ball position I tend to hit noticably more hooks. If I move my ball position forward, only slightly, I get a good ball flight as stated above. Does this sound about right?

Should the ball position move forward fractionally for S&T?

I agree with your interpretation Gareth, but i'm struggling to think of a clear way to say how!

Can't remember all the details in Bennet and Plummer, but having the ball too far back is likely to cause excessive draw or a hook. Effectively you are hitting too far out of the back of the arc, which means the club is still on a more pronounced outward trajectroy. Depending on how the clubface is angled at that moment, you can hit pushes or hooks, or even fades.

Nearer the front foot, it is on a less aggressive outward trajectory, as per the in-out-in swing arc. Like hitting from 4 o'clock on a clock, face rather than 5 o'clock (I'm exaggerating but you get the point)

As they say, it all depends on where the midpoint of your shoulder/sternum is as to where your arc is.

As for moving the ball forward more for S&T, I guess that it a subjective statement that varies from person to person and depends on where you played the ball in your stance previously.

I would say I played the ball from relatively far forward in my stance before so have not really had to make much of an adjustment to ball position, but you may have a different set-up and be getting different results.

The good thing about S&T, as you know, as that they let you try things out for yourself, rather than telling you exactly how to do things

hope you don't mind my two penneth... still working it all out myself so trying to solve a few problems is all very handy!

 

[One Planer]

All opinions welcome as always Monty.

See I played the ball quite far back with my previous swing. Moving it forward a touch seems to be helped me keep better control of the flight.

How are you finding it?

 

[Monty_Brown]

I've only had a couple of range sessions with it so far, but lots to be encouraged by. As is widely reported, better ball striking, always a right to left shape, but just overcooking a few into hooks while I get to grips with set up and try to get a feel for the key positions.

What I'm impressed by is that while it seems like a radical change in theory, in practice it just seems to build on what you have already, swing-wise with some very achieveable and easy to understand chnages. For example, leaving your weight on the left is a simple feeling to get and put into action.

Taking hands on the inside over the right shoe: again, easy to see if you're doing that move as they have a simple way of viewing it.

I have got to a decent handicap while showing ALL the common faults they describe in an orthodox swing: namely, big body move away from the target, fats, weak fades etc. It all really resonates with what I know of my own game. So if I can get to grips with S&T, I feel I can knock a couple of shots off my hcp without too many problems.

I'll keep plugging away on the range for a few weeks, and take it to the course in the new year.

 

[Slime]

Hi all. Have stumbled on this thread & found it fascinating.
I'm in my 50's & have been playing off around 17 for over 10 years now.
Want to have a final bash at reducing my handicap to around 12 despite only playing every couple of weeks or so.
I have bad knees, due to too much football without properly warming up or down, and I am extremely unflexible. I also suffer from a ridiculous overswing! My half swing is your full swing & my left arm is as bent as a fiddler's elbow, in fact, I nearly strangle myself on my backswing!
I'm definitely going to give S&T a go whilst pretending that I've never played before, therfore leaving my old swing at home.
It's going to be a saga, but needs to be in place before I have a jolly in Spain next May.
I will endeavor to report back at times if you feel that would be useful.
Again, great thread & great forum,
Slime.

 

[JustOne]

Welcome to the forum 'Slime',.. and to S&T. Good luck with it. How will you learn, have you bought the book?

 

[Slime]

Not bought the book yet but have seen some useful video's on YouTube etc.
Should I get a general feel for S&T first, or should I get the book?
Slime.

 

[Monty_Brown]

Not bought the book yet but have seen some useful video's on YouTube etc.
Should I get a general feel for S&T first, or should I get the book?
Slime.

I'd recommend getting the book by Bennett and Plummer. It gives a full account of how to build a S&T swing, and almost as importantly, WHY they recommend each part of their swing. It will really help your understandng of the golf swing.

Youtube is very helpful, but you'll have to look all over the place to piece together the info. It's good for tips and specific issues, once you have got to grips with the basics.

Good luck and let us know how you go.

 

[Slime]

Thanks Monty_Brown,
The book has just made a late entry onto my christmas list.........infact, it IS my christmas list.

Slime.

 

[chris661]

Welcome to the forum 'Slime',.. and to S&T. Good luck with it. How will you learn, have you bought the book?

Yes, and I plan to give it a real bash over the christmas period. Make sure your pm box is clear

 

[Monty_Brown]

Yes, and I plan to give it a real bash over the christmas period. Make sure your pm box is clear

As it seems like there are a fair few people looking to use understand and discuss S&T at the moment, it would be good to have a thread for that purpose, rather than a free for all where people come on and criticise it (I am quite happy if people want to do that, but it would be good to keep the discussion separate)

Can we either chnage the title of this thread to reflect that it is for discussing S&T technique, or start a new one?

My original title was meant to be an old Mrs Merton joke but it also seems to be a lightning conductor for people who don't agree with S&T.

 

[Region3]

I know diddly about S&T other than you have more weight on the front leg and tilt your shoulders towards the ball (which I thought you were supposed to do anyway), but I've just had a go while I was at the range.

Setting up it felt like I was going to smash the club into the mat how my weight was distributed, but I swung anyway.

American girl accent

Oh............ my............. god!

I couldn't believe how well I hit it, so I tried a few more. All the same. 4 iron, beautiful. The hybrid went well too, but my 4 wood and driver weren't so pretty. I even hit some intentional draws, but we won't go into that

I won't be putting it into action, at least not yet anyway, but what else is there to it other than the weight and tilting shoulders?

I might have to experiment some more!