chris661
Money List Winner
The biggest problem I (or anyone else) have is there are no damned instructors. Why? I like having someone there to cast an eye over me and help me out there is only so much I can do from books and DVDs on my own.
Stack and tilt: let's have a heated debate
- Thread starter Monty_Brown
- Start date
JustOne
Ryder Cup Winner
Whilst I agree I also think that it's similar for all instruction unless you're really working with a top pro and put the required hours of practice in.
Once you get good at the game there's only so much a local pro can give you in terms of coaching - the ballflight determines the 'tip' that you get and you're pretty much limited to whatever swing the pro sees fit to teach. He might set you up in a reverse K, maybe over the ball or maybe erring on loading up the right side... you're still going to have to learn whatever process he decides to teach you.
For me S&T (or certainly the principles) are something that you can work on by yourself IF you can be bothered to take some decent video of your swing, there are positions that you should be looking for and there's a lot of information available on the web. Knowing what causes certain 'misses' is important no matter what swing you're using (are you going to go running to your pro every time you miss hit a ball?)
Hitting the ball is all about timing and a 'centered swing' is certainly easier to time.. once you agree with that you then have to realise that in order to make a centered swing you need to turn your shoulders in a circle over the ball (there's no other way)... and that's when you get into S&T territory!
Even if your swing isn't 100% S&T you should have a solid base to build a swing on, even without a ton of practice you can keep some remnance of a swing together as it's a compact swing with no swaying about.
Monty_Brown
Tour Rookie
I ended up sitting next to my club pro at a golf society event yesterday and we had an interesting conversation. I had a few lessons off him last year which did get me to a certain point while I came back to the game, so I respect him as a teacher.
He'd heard I've been working on S&T, and was open to having a good chat about it. It was good to hear that he didn't simply reject S&T, and agreed that a lot of the principles could be useful for golfers. In fact one of the asssistant pros in the shop has switched to S&T so they are discussing and debating the merits of the technique.
He also told me that another local pro, Matt Belsham at Whitehills in Herts is teaching it, so I may check out what he's doing. He has a big reputation locally any way.
No particualr point to this post other than to note that the idea that the whole PGA is hellbent on destriying and rejecting S&T is not true.. there are, as in any walk of life, some pros who are more open minded than others.
He'd heard I've been working on S&T, and was open to having a good chat about it. It was good to hear that he didn't simply reject S&T, and agreed that a lot of the principles could be useful for golfers. In fact one of the asssistant pros in the shop has switched to S&T so they are discussing and debating the merits of the technique.
He also told me that another local pro, Matt Belsham at Whitehills in Herts is teaching it, so I may check out what he's doing. He has a big reputation locally any way.
No particualr point to this post other than to note that the idea that the whole PGA is hellbent on destriying and rejecting S&T is not true.. there are, as in any walk of life, some pros who are more open minded than others.
One Planer
Global Moderator
Quick question regarding hand positon and shaft lean.
Previously I mentioned I've started keeping my hands more forward at address (Just inside my left thigh) as prescribed as part of the pattern to try and add more lag into my swing. See below:
As opposed to my previos set up:
My question is this.
Does the hand position (Just inside left thigh) remain constant regardless of club?
Giving plenty of shaft lean with wedges (See 1st picture), with the shaft lean getting progressivley less and less as the length of the shaft (.. and subsequent ball position changes) increases?
Previously I mentioned I've started keeping my hands more forward at address (Just inside my left thigh) as prescribed as part of the pattern to try and add more lag into my swing. See below:
As opposed to my previos set up:
My question is this.
Does the hand position (Just inside left thigh) remain constant regardless of club?
Giving plenty of shaft lean with wedges (See 1st picture), with the shaft lean getting progressivley less and less as the length of the shaft (.. and subsequent ball position changes) increases?
One Planer
Global Moderator
Never mind. I think YouTube provided the answer
Mike Weir:
Wedge:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSSqA8mNafc
Driver:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyZR30JKPTo
Mike Weir:
Wedge:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSSqA8mNafc
Driver:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyZR30JKPTo
Jay1
Head Pro
Well I'm new to this forum, and have to say very new to the idea of S&T. I used to read a lot about the swing and everything golf, but since moving and not being able to afford club membership I've played very little over the last 3 years. I am now starting to really get back in to it and want to get back to single figures again (used to play of 8, currently about 11).
I stumbled across this thread and after hearing S&T mentioned on TV recently thought I'd have a read. I've now read the whole thread and watched a load of youtube videos and read other bits and pieces.
Certain parts of S&T theroy have really struck a chord with me. I've always had a fair bit of lateral hip movement toward the target on the downswing naturally, which has resulted in me always having an in to out swing path, and a draw. However, occasionaly it could be destructive, with the odd big block, hook, fat shot and even S***k. Also, I don't have a massive amount of wrist cock in my swing. Reading the theory behind S&T covered in this thread got me thinking that it seems to suit my swing, and that by elliminating some of the lateral movement on the way back, should get my ball striking back, and lessen the risks of my disaster shots due to less moving parts.
Since starting playing more regularly again I've notice my ball stiking and hence distance control haven't been what they were. These used to be real strengths of my game. I've never been a slicer of the ball so that aspect of what S&T stops isn't a concern of mine.
So, after all that reading and thinking, I was at the range last night and thought I'd give it a go. So I set up, narrower stance with feet splayed slightly, hands slightly pressed forward, weight set on left side. Then thought, right forget all your old lessons about swinging in front of you and let the hands and club go around, but stay on the left side. With those swing thoughts it just worked. Instantly I was getting a lovely ball ground solid impact, a penetrating flight and a soft draw.
There were so poor shots, the high right driver occasionaly, and the overly drawn low ones. But most shots were well struck, pretty much at the target with a predictable draw.
I got a video of my swing and it's certainly not classic S&T, and my club is definately too flat and off plane at the mid point of the swing, but for a first go at it I was extremely impressed. I had a feeling that the concept would suit my natural swing, which is inside to out. The biggest change for me is not concentrating on width in the back swing and keeping the weight centred, but I think I may stick with this for a while.
Whether I will go the whole hog and get the book and go completely S&T I'm not sure yet, but the weight centred, hip slide and shorter inside back swing do seem to work, so we'll see.
Big decision is that i have a game arranged tomorrow. Do I brave the S&T style swing on the course after just one range session, or do I stick with my normal swing. Decisions decisions.
I stumbled across this thread and after hearing S&T mentioned on TV recently thought I'd have a read. I've now read the whole thread and watched a load of youtube videos and read other bits and pieces.
Certain parts of S&T theroy have really struck a chord with me. I've always had a fair bit of lateral hip movement toward the target on the downswing naturally, which has resulted in me always having an in to out swing path, and a draw. However, occasionaly it could be destructive, with the odd big block, hook, fat shot and even S***k. Also, I don't have a massive amount of wrist cock in my swing. Reading the theory behind S&T covered in this thread got me thinking that it seems to suit my swing, and that by elliminating some of the lateral movement on the way back, should get my ball striking back, and lessen the risks of my disaster shots due to less moving parts.
Since starting playing more regularly again I've notice my ball stiking and hence distance control haven't been what they were. These used to be real strengths of my game. I've never been a slicer of the ball so that aspect of what S&T stops isn't a concern of mine.
So, after all that reading and thinking, I was at the range last night and thought I'd give it a go. So I set up, narrower stance with feet splayed slightly, hands slightly pressed forward, weight set on left side. Then thought, right forget all your old lessons about swinging in front of you and let the hands and club go around, but stay on the left side. With those swing thoughts it just worked. Instantly I was getting a lovely ball ground solid impact, a penetrating flight and a soft draw.
There were so poor shots, the high right driver occasionaly, and the overly drawn low ones. But most shots were well struck, pretty much at the target with a predictable draw.
I got a video of my swing and it's certainly not classic S&T, and my club is definately too flat and off plane at the mid point of the swing, but for a first go at it I was extremely impressed. I had a feeling that the concept would suit my natural swing, which is inside to out. The biggest change for me is not concentrating on width in the back swing and keeping the weight centred, but I think I may stick with this for a while.
Whether I will go the whole hog and get the book and go completely S&T I'm not sure yet, but the weight centred, hip slide and shorter inside back swing do seem to work, so we'll see.
Big decision is that i have a game arranged tomorrow. Do I brave the S&T style swing on the course after just one range session, or do I stick with my normal swing. Decisions decisions.
JustOne
Ryder Cup Winner
That's the guy that Robert Rock had some advice from and credited him after his win over Tiger.
JustOne
Ryder Cup Winner
Interesting to see just how much the hips work in those vids.
Saw Ricky Barnes last night on the TV and thought his hips were lateral on the downswing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xyO4tHbQi0
Can't find one of him hitting driver face on..... so if anyone fancies looking on Youtube....
He looks very close to a reverse pivot on the backswing but then drives forward further than my car going to the shops!
JustOne
Ryder Cup Winner
Firstly, Welcome to the forum Jay1
I'd use the swing straight away but not judge it if you're crap
...it's YOU... not the swing If you have a decent forward flex in your upper body over the ball the plane should look after itself somewhat as your left shoulder turns down to the ball. :thup:
Monty_Brown
Tour Rookie
I had a look at his website earlier and he also has worked with a few other tour players. Doesn't mention S&T outright so wonder if he teaches something based on it or what. I know he's hard to get a booking with so is probably doing some good work....
percy_layer
Challenge Tour Pro
Really enjoying this thread, some very interesting points from everyone trying this technique.
Don't want to highjack the thread but if anyone has any questions for Plummer and Bennett, PM me and I'll try to ask them when I see them in a couple of months.
Best of luck to each of you implementing the elements into your game. Its not for me but it is very interesting.
Don't want to highjack the thread but if anyone has any questions for Plummer and Bennett, PM me and I'll try to ask them when I see them in a couple of months.
Best of luck to each of you implementing the elements into your game. Its not for me but it is very interesting.
JustOne
Ryder Cup Winner
Yeh,,... ask them if they can send JustOne a copy of S&T 2.0 DVD for free seeing as I've single-handedly promoted their swing for nearly 3 yrs!
If not can they at least make sure that someone in the UK has a few 1000 copies! :thup:
While you're at it ask them if they can put me through their training qualification for free as well
Oh yeah... and at least get them to open a blog or forum on their site for Q and A's :thup:
GuitarRich
Club Champion
2nd go at the range yesterday. Not quite as positive as the 1st, took me a few hits to warm up. My Mid-long irons (7-4) felt and flew nicely, I was pushing wedges and short irons a bit right - but I didn't have the book with me to go through the fault tree.
My driver & hybrid - what can I say! For some reason I could hardly hit the ball with the hybrid, kept topping it and my drives were back to a big slice More practice required I think!
Still feel fairly positive about the swing tho!
Question - how should it feel/sound when you strike the ball? For the most part, I'm getting a loud contact noise and can feel the club strike the ball in my hands. But about 1 in 5 shots I can't feel the strike at all, and the sound is quite - those are the ones that seem to go the best and the ball flight is a lot higher. Sometimes feels too high tbh.
My driver & hybrid - what can I say! For some reason I could hardly hit the ball with the hybrid, kept topping it and my drives were back to a big slice
More practice required I think! Still feel fairly positive about the swing tho!
Question - how should it feel/sound when you strike the ball? For the most part, I'm getting a loud contact noise and can feel the club strike the ball in my hands. But about 1 in 5 shots I can't feel the strike at all, and the sound is quite - those are the ones that seem to go the best and the ball flight is a lot higher. Sometimes feels too high tbh.
Monty_Brown
Tour Rookie
In honour of the critics who think S&T is about hitting the ball on one leg, here's a Sean Foley drill for... hitting the ball off one leg :whoo:
Good to reinforce the weight on the front foot feeling though. I feel like in the midst of a good scoring run, I have lost touch with a few core principles, including front foot weight and spine lean. Going to hit the range for the first time in a few weeks to get back to basics.
[video=youtube;PhY2sQlTRx0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhY2sQlTRx0[/video]
:whoo:Good to reinforce the weight on the front foot feeling though. I feel like in the midst of a good scoring run, I have lost touch with a few core principles, including front foot weight and spine lean. Going to hit the range for the first time in a few weeks to get back to basics.
[video=youtube;PhY2sQlTRx0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhY2sQlTRx0[/video]
ADB
Journeyman Pro
In honour of the critics who think S&T is about hitting the ball on one leg, here's a Sean Foley drill for... hitting the ball off one leg
Good to reinforce the weight on the front foot feeling though. I feel like in the midst of a good scoring run, I have lost touch with a few core principles, including front foot weight and spine lean. Going to hit the range for the first time in a few weeks to get back to basics.
[video=youtube;PhY2sQlTRx0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhY2sQlTRx0[/video]
Blimey, my left knee ligaments were straining just watching that clip........
Slime
Tour Winner
Hi guys.
S&T is finally going to the course.
First round this year, tomorrow afternoon, followed by a trip to Bearwood Lakes on Wednesday.
For those interested I'll post a report, probably over the weekend.
Don't know why, but I'm feeling strangely nervous..................not sure what to expect.
It'll either be a disaster or it'll be my own personal 'Concorde Moment'.
Hmmmmmmm.
There's nothing like putting a bit of extra pressure on yourself.
Slime.
S&T is finally going to the course.
First round this year, tomorrow afternoon, followed by a trip to Bearwood Lakes on Wednesday.
For those interested I'll post a report, probably over the weekend.
Don't know why, but I'm feeling strangely nervous..................not sure what to expect.
It'll either be a disaster or it'll be my own personal 'Concorde Moment'.
Hmmmmmmm.
There's nothing like putting a bit of extra pressure on yourself
.Slime.
Monty_Brown
Tour Rookie
Managed a few holes after work, rather than the range, but used the quiet time on the course to really focus on what I was doing and re-address the fundamentals. As I said earlier, I think I'd lost touch with some key moves, particualrly the spine tilt on the backswing. My shoulder turn had got very level and reduced, leading to loss of distance and lack of draw.
Today I really focused on the tilt and staying stacked... who knew how helpful the name of the S&T pattern could be!
As with ANY swing pattern, its vital to check you are doing the basics well.
The result was a load more distance... comfortably 20 yards off the tee, and the draw was back.
Filmed a couple of swings on the course and noticed how upright i'm ending up at the finish. I think I'm failing to get the corresponding spin tilt to the right on the through swing, leading to backing off the ball and getting squared up and too upright at the finish.
Some things to continue to work on, but really encouraged by the results of revisiting the fundamentals.
Today I really focused on the tilt and staying stacked... who knew how helpful the name of the S&T pattern could be!
As with ANY swing pattern, its vital to check you are doing the basics well.
The result was a load more distance... comfortably 20 yards off the tee, and the draw was back.
Filmed a couple of swings on the course and noticed how upright i'm ending up at the finish. I think I'm failing to get the corresponding spin tilt to the right on the through swing, leading to backing off the ball and getting squared up and too upright at the finish.
Some things to continue to work on, but really encouraged by the results of revisiting the fundamentals.
One Planer
Global Moderator
I've spent the last week or so experimenting with ball position.
I know what I need to do to hit a push draw, but was curious about what other ball positions would yeild.
I've been playing the ball, roughly a balls width forward of centre with a club face square to target. All I've hit, pretty much are push fades. Starting righ, and gently fading further.
How?
Well, turns out, according to the book, that a stronger grip, with a slightly closed club face (to target) will start the ball left and fade it to the target.
By weakening your grip (returning the club face open) and aiming slightly right of target, swinging in to out will hit a straight shot.
By doing the club face further right of target (10 yards in the book), again more neutral grip, swinging in to out will hit the push draw (depending on ball position on the swing arc).
No wonder people get confused
I know what I need to do to hit a push draw, but was curious about what other ball positions would yeild.
I've been playing the ball, roughly a balls width forward of centre with a club face square to target. All I've hit, pretty much are push fades. Starting righ, and gently fading further.
How?
Well, turns out, according to the book, that a stronger grip, with a slightly closed club face (to target) will start the ball left and fade it to the target.
By weakening your grip (returning the club face open) and aiming slightly right of target, swinging in to out will hit a straight shot.
By doing the club face further right of target (10 yards in the book), again more neutral grip, swinging in to out will hit the push draw (depending on ball position on the swing arc).
No wonder people get confused
One Planer
Global Moderator
Just incase any one is interested, I've happened across an American S&T instructor on YouTube named Andy Patnou.
Here's a sample f his videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcDau9hQ78I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYTVc4JbUBU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z17lfg5bdXU
Here's a sample f his videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcDau9hQ78I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYTVc4JbUBU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z17lfg5bdXU
Jay1
Head Pro
Question to those that have been practising and using S&T for a while now.
How has it affected your carry distances, if at all?
How has it affected your carry distances, if at all?
