Stack and tilt: let's have a heated debate

[Monty_Brown]

I really do not understand all this talk about stack and tilt, it looks exactly the same as a normal golf swing, everything they say that a "normal" golf swing is something teaching pros tell me is wrong. Everything I get taught is in a stack and tilt swing but I am just learning the swing the pros teach me and its all the same.

I am sure stack and tilt and the normal golf swing teaching pros use is the same thing!

Are all the pros just teaching stack and tilt or are the two things one and the same?

Interesting point SB. The thing that gets missed often in discussion of S&T is that it was developed through analysis of the swings of successful players. Bennett and Plummer spend years looking at the swings of the most successful players through the years and seeing what moves and positions they had in common.

Centred weight, no move off the ball, straightening right leg on the b/s, deep hands, leg extension through impact.... these are all common moves and they are well documented in the book with pictures of pros going back 50 years.

It really isn't so different from "normal" swings, but when these moves are put together, it gets portrayed as being some sort of dark art.

 

[Slime]

Hi all,
I took S&T to the course for the fourth time, and I've got to say, I'm getting quite excited as it seems to be coming together at last.
The weather on Wednesday was awful, it was very windy & poured with rain non-stop from about the 5th hole onwards. I shot a gross 83, scored 41pts and played the last ten holes in 3 over par!
I hit 10 of 14 fairways since I've pushed the ball position more forward in my stance but still have a couple of issues that I hope you experts can address for me.
The first problem is that I hit several approaches left of target, even with a slightly open clubface. These shots started straight and drew about 10 or 15 yards left of target.............any thoughts?
The other problem I had was with my 60º lob wedge, it just goes nowhere. No matter how hard I hit it I just can't get it to go more than 60yds when I think it should be going 75yds minimum...........maybe a ball position problem? I have the ball in the middle of my stance when hitting all my wedges, my 55º sand wedge goes about 95yds if that's any help.
Thanks for listening once again,

Slime.

 

[ScienceBoy]

Interesting point SB. The thing that gets missed often in discussion of S&T is that it was developed through analysis of the swings of successful players.

I have come to the conclusion that S&T is a exaggerated standard swing. The marketing people try and make it sound more different and encourage the people promoting it to sound more different. Most of the negative comments about the so called "normal" swing are exaggerated or inaccurate for the modern "normal" swing taught by pros up and down the country.

None of that means there is anything wrong with S&T, it just means the marketing department (they do seem to have done a number on this one in the golfing world) have got their grubby mitt prints all over it. Especially all that bit about what the pros do different to each other and those bits not making a difference, that is massively exaggerating things, once I heard that I was convinced that the marketing team were behind a lot of the hype!

What I am trying to say is don't believe all the hype, S&T does not look that different to a normal golf swing but it appears the slight modifications will work for some people more than others.

 

[JustOne]

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Interesting opinion SB. I don't know what 'marketing' you are referring to as the people that started the S&T swing theory hardly do anything to market themselves at all... that's generally done by people that have had success from the pattern, or understand the golf swing.

S&T is a exaggerated standard swing

I disagree, I'd say in reality that it's more like the standard swing becoming a diluted version of S&T over the past 4 yrs.



World reknowned instructors acknowledge the merits of the S&T swing and the elements it's structured on, pros are incorporating these elements into their current teaching more than ever.... which I think causes your confusion.

 

[Slime]

Hi everyone,
I played yesterday in a howling gale but still struck the ball pleasingly well.
The problem was that I got plugged, (all below the sand in a big plug hole), in eight bunkers, resulting in eleven bunker shots! I then realised that they were all left of greens. I'd pulled my approaches left time & time again.
I have a 'mental' problem in that I find it very disconcerting to hit an approach shot with my clubface open to my intended target line, having been a slicer for over twenty years, bearing in mind that, due to the wind, they were all 'knock down' shots. Does this type of shot obey the S&T principles of open face with in to out swingpath when just trying to punch the ball 130yds or so?
Any advice would be good,
many thanks,

Slime.

 

[duncan mackie]

"S&T is a exaggerated standard swing "




'I disagree, I'd say in reality that it's more like the standard swing becoming a diluted version of S&T over the past 4 yrs.'

I agree your disagreement, but can't agree your conclusion

The locked right knee and extended left leg through impact are not part of the standard swing - then or now.

Personally I see it as a simple, easy to teach and learn, swing - it should get more people enjoying the game quicker. Excellent.

 

[pokerjoke]

Hi all,
I took S&T to the course for the fourth time, and I've got to say, I'm getting quite excited as it seems to be coming together at last.
The weather on Wednesday was awful, it was very windy & poured with rain non-stop from about the 5th hole onwards. I shot a gross 83, scored 41pts and played the last ten holes in 3 over par!
I hit 10 of 14 fairways since I've pushed the ball position more forward in my stance but still have a couple of issues that I hope you experts can address for me.
The first problem is that I hit several approaches left of target, even with a slightly open clubface. These shots started straight and drew about 10 or 15 yards left of target.............any thoughts?
The other problem I had was with my 60º lob wedge, it just goes nowhere. No matter how hard I hit it I just can't get it to go more than 60yds when I think it should be going 75yds minimum...........maybe a ball position problem? I have the ball in the middle of my stance when hitting all my wedges, my 55º sand wedge goes about 95yds if that's any help.
Thanks for listening once again,

Slime.

It sounds like your alignment is out.
I would say your feet and your shoulders are pointing left,but
you feel you are aiming at the flag.
The reason i say this is purely because it is what i do.
And when i look at my alignment,i am pointing more left than
i think i am.
Maybe it is maybe it isnt,but its worth looking at.

 

[ScienceBoy]

World reknowned instructors acknowledge the merits of the S&T swing and the elements it's structured on, pros are incorporating these elements into their current teaching more than ever.... which I think causes your confusion.

If that is also the case for club and driving range pros (a la bob) then that's probably true! Its not a bad thing, I am not anti S&T, I just play the swing taught me by the guy who I learnt golf from! I just get the opinion after switching pros that the swing being taught now is closer to S&T than what I hear people have been taught in the past.

 

[garyinderry]

so i met my first stack and tilter last night. my mate has been getting lessons for the last two years. he has a lovely looking swing. nice tempo, beautiful finish, the lot. but when he hits the ball he either thins, fats or shanks. no consistancy at all. it was driving him mad.

i noticed in his set up he seemed to have elements of whats looks like the stack and tilt swing. the pro has now started teaching him this swing as he said he was having trouble with the weightshift. we had a chat last night and i tryed a few shots and i was amazed how well it worked.

today i hit 3 lazer stright irons with the 5,6 & 7! any time i tried a practice swing i was taking,wait for it. straight divots! the first time EVER!

there is no doubting that there is something to this swing. i might be a natural for this as i already have the straight right leg and 1 plane swing.


this is will be under more investigation in the coming weeks. even if i just takes bits from it then it will stand me in good stead!


havnt seen this discussed in a while. might give this thread anther read when i get a chance!

 

[virtuocity]

Mega bump! Hope mods don't mind, I'd rather contribute here than start a new one.

As an overweight dude in my late 20s, I have just started playing and have had 4 lessons thus far.

I have really struggled to come to terms with the swing I am being taught. 90% of my shots (95% of driver hits) are crazy slices.

Took to an indoor range today after reading this thread. OK- I appreciate I can't examine my flight path fully, but after adopting:

-Weight on left leg
-Tilt left shoulder
-Spring hip through downswing

.... My flight path was straight.

Most importantly, it felt COMFORTABLE. After hitting 100 or so balls, my hands, back, shoulders usually feel stiff and sore. Right now, I feel like I could go and hit 200 more balls.

Going down to my outside range tomorrow morning and will report back.

In the meantime, if anyone has those DVDs gathering dust, I'll be happy to take them off your hands for a reasonable price.

 

[Slime]

Get the book.
http://www.google.co.uk/products/ca...a=X&ei=sddhUP7fJKzO0AX6nIG4Cg&ved=0CD8Q8wIwAg
I find it really helpful and easy to understand.
I also find fault diagnosis much easier with S & T as there is less body movement during the swing.
Stick with it.

Slime.

 

[virtuocity]

Get the book.
http://www.google.co.uk/products/ca...a=X&ei=sddhUP7fJKzO0AX6nIG4Cg&ved=0CD8Q8wIwAg
I find it really helpful and easy to understand.
I also find fault diagnosis much easier with S & T as there is less body movement during the swing.
Stick with it.

Slime.

Cool stuff- A library quite close to me actually has it! Will pick it up tomorrow.

 

[chris661]

Cool stuff- A library quite close to me actually has it! Will pick it up tomorrow.

I have a set of the dvd's and book available. If you want them drop me a pm and we will sort something out.

 

[virtuocity]

Mini update.

Went to the range this morning and hit 200 balls (£6.50!).

Short irons feel amazing, although struggling slightly with my 5 iron and 5 wood.

I've always had a problem with distance (well, since starting to play a couple of months ago) but I was, repeat WAS, a consistent slicer.

I think I sliced one ball today and faded around 25 of them, but the majority of shots either went dead straight or with a 5-10 yard draw.

Not bad for Day 2 of this project.

My distance is a bit of a pain though from the perfect range mat:

PW- super high and 80 yards
9 iron- 115 yards
7 iron- 120 yards
6 iron- 125 yards
5 iron- 130 yards
5 wood- 150 yards*

(* off the range tee)

Now in possession of the book, courtesy of my library and noticed quite a few things I haven't been adopting.

Things I will work on as per the book instructions (please comment):

1. Standing more upright at set-up, then bending the knees and neck with butt pushed back to keep a good centre.
2. Work on straightening my right leg through the backswing
3. Pushing my butt under my torso through the downswing

Anyone else currently learning this swing? I know it's been a while since Monty, Gareth et al posted here?

 

[One Planer]

Anyone else currently learning this swing? I know it's been a while since Monty, Gareth et al posted here?

To be honest I forgot all about the thread .

I'm working on getting the final piece correct at the mo (Finish position)

That should see me through the winter and hopefully have it sorted come start of the 2013 season.

 

[Slime]

My distance is a bit of a pain though from the perfect range mat:

PW- super high and 80 yards
9 iron- 115 yards
7 iron- 120 yards
6 iron- 125 yards
5 iron- 130 yards
5 wood- 150 yards*

(* off the range tee)

I wouldn't worry about distances because range balls are exactly that..................range balls, and as such do not go as far as proper golf balls. If they did, at £6.50 for 200, they'd all be gone in an instant.
Keep plugging away, you won't regret it.

Slime.

 

[One Planer]

I wouldn't worry about distances because range balls are exactly that..................range balls, and as such do not go as far as proper golf balls. If they did, at £6.50 for 200, they'd all be gone in an instant.
Keep plugging away, you won't regret it.

Slime.

Is the right answer.

Don't expect miracles over night, give yourself time to adopt to the changes and see how you feel then.

 

[virtuocity]

Is the right answer.

Don't expect miracles over night, give yourself time to adopt to the changes and see how you feel then.

Incorrect. I sliced 0.5% of shots today. That sir, is a miracle!

 

[virtuocity]

Just went for a video analysis. Horrible viewing, but really interesting. I would post a vid here but it's hosted via a bespoke site which needs log ons.

Seem to have a decent set up, takeaway and backswing. The main issue I have is on the downswing- getting my left hip out of the way. Because my hips aren't turning properly, it's causing my left arm to bend at impact (ugly) and even more so at the end of the swing.

Pro has given me some drills to improve a more consistent connection with the ball, but anyone with any tips on getting this hip turn working (particularly from S&T followers) would be great.

Edited to add:

The flight tracker & simulator picked up that my distances with the 7 iron was better than what I thought and although distance with my 5 wood was OK, the club speed at impact wasn't as fast as it should be- perhaps because I was decelerating through the downswing because of a poor hip turn.

 

[JustOne]

Your pro is teaching you stack and tilt, and videoing it for you too?