Stack and tilt: let's have a heated debate

[GuitarRich]

for my irons - similar if not a yard or too further as I'm striking the ball a bit better. My driver was rubbish before and is still so I can't comment on that.

 

[Monty_Brown]

Question to those that have been practising and using S&T for a while now.

How has it affected your carry distances, if at all?

I'm perhaps 5 yards longer with my irons, although I have changed clubs during my 3-4 months working with S&T, so not that helpful I suppose.

However, with driver, carry and total distance are significantly longer... I think I'm 10-15 yards longer off the tee with S&T.

 

[Slime]

Hi guys.
S&T is finally going to the course.
First round this year, tomorrow afternoon, followed by a trip to Bearwood Lakes on Wednesday.
..................not sure what to expect.
It'll either be a disaster or it'll be my own personal 'Concorde Moment'.
Slime.

Sit rep.
Played yesterday at Bramley G C. Scored 30pts.
My driving was total gash. Right, left, high floaty shots & a couple of tops!
I hit just ONE fairway & three greens in the entire round.
22 putts going out & 13 coming back. What's that all about?
BUT............and that was quite a large but, my short irons were much better than they used to be.
I hit a few really crisp approaches but found my radar was a bit pissed, I pulled a few left, but, as the contact was good I don't have a great issue with that. I can adjust that.
As I said, 30pts was not too bad considering my six three-jabs on the front nine.
At one point I went 8, 3, 8, 9, 3. Not good.
Today I played at Bearwood Lakes, cracking course, but holes 8 & 9 were closed so we finished by playing the 1st & 18th again to make up the full 18 holes.
I was abysmal! I scored 28 points with only 31 putts.
My driving was better, I found 8 fairways, but I only hit 2 greens in regulation .
I wish I could take my form from the range to the course..........today I didn't.
I hit quite a few irons fat & pulled a few left & I think the reason for this is that I'm just trying to spank the little bugger, on the range I don't do that. When I did hit a good iron it felt really crisp & kept a bit of hope going. I did manage to hit a beautiful soft draw with my hybrid, 200yds up a slight hill, that was nice.
To sum up : It's obviously still a WIP & I'm not giving up. I must remember to 'let the club do the work' & stop trying to burst the bloody ball, oh, and turn those bloody hips through on the downswing!!!!!!!
Bad shots have always been bad but the good shots are just gorgeous................I've just got to hit more of them!
I hope someone finds this useful.
I'm sticking with it, no doubt, although it's only 7½ weeks until I go to Spain !
Wishing you all well,

Slime.

P.S. I still had a great day, four mates in hot sunshine laughing their way round Bearwood Lakes..........quality.

 

[Monty_Brown]

After playing really poorly the last couple of rounds, I've spent some time revisiting the book and checking out a few threads on sandtrap and youtube videos.

My bad shots have all been pushes, blocks or push slices, which tells me that the in to out club path is there, but the face is too open at impact.

I've realised my error has been mistaking deep hands and thinking that requires deep clubhead too. I am taking the hands away on the inside, but also taking the club even further inside (by rolling the right arm open) at the same time. Not good - its almost impossible to get the clubhead back to square from that position, meaning I either have to come OTT to compensate or just get stuck behind and hit the push.

What I need to be doing is keeping the club outside my hands on the down the line view (a la Rickie Fowler). Best swing feeling I can find for this is to concentrate on keeping the back of the left hand facing the ball as long as possible on the takeaway, with the back of the right hand staying on top as long as possible as well. Looking forward to trying this out.

This guy's thread on his swing issues describes the above problem pretty well, and the advice is excellent.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/53961/my-swing-the-pharaoh

 

[GuitarRich]

Had my second outing yesterday - 2 rounds at Kilworth springs - I think some more range time is in order tho! Struggled with the driver - only hitting 6 fairways all day. When I did it right, it was really nice!, but for the most part not so good. Most frustrating thing is that my bad shot has gone from a big old slice to being completely random - slice, hooks, topping it - arrhh

Irons were ok - a lot of push fade's and mostly missing the target - but hitting ok.

Wedges - I duffed quite a few, hitting the ground first and only getting half the distance I was going for, I think a lot of that tho was down to being hesitant in the down swing, not wanting to hit it over the back of the greens.

My new 3 wood on the other hand was awesome - so that was a positive on the day.

I took a vid of my swing on the 18th - no tripod so its a bit shaky (handheld by my playing partner) - but its not as neat as it is in my head - I'll upload it for you to analyse (tear to bits) later!

Need to fix my drives!

 

[GuitarRich]

[video=youtube;_ExzjoUHED0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ExzjoUHED0[/video]

here you go - be kind

 

[Slime]

Struggled with the driver - only hitting 6 fairways all day. When I did it right, it was really nice!, but for the most part not so good. Most frustrating thing is that my bad shot has gone from a big old slice to being completely random - slice, hooks, topping it - arrhh

Irons were ok - a lot of push fade's and mostly missing the target - but hitting ok.

Wedges - I duffed quite a few, hitting the ground first and only getting half the distance I was going for, I think a lot of that tho was down to being hesitant in the down swing, not wanting to hit it over the back of the greens.

Need to fix my drives!

I'm with you there mate.
I had a bash around Reigate Hill on Saturday, my 3rd outing with S&T.
I scored 30pts with 5 re-loads, so not too bad. Of the re-loads, four were high & ugly slices, 2 of which ended up OOB! Driving is still very much a problem unless I go to my 4 wood or my hybrid. I just have no confidence when standing on the tee with my driver in my hands!!
My iron play, on the other hand, was really solid. Shot two over gross on the par threes with 9 putts, so not too bad. Good strikes, good distance but with the occaisional pull.
I'm still getting used to my new clubs and I'm still not too sure on the distances, especially the wedges.
Off to the range to swear at my driver again!!! Aaaaggghhh.

Slime.

 

[Slime]

Off to the range to swear at my driver again!!! Aaaaggghhh.

Slime.

Well...........what can I say?
Everything seemed to be going as expected. Short irons, mid irons, long irons, hybrid...........all going really well. Pulled out my 4 wood.............whack..........good shot, more than acceptable.
Three more shots.............very good.............that leaves only one club remaining.
Pulled out the driver & BOOM. 150yds forward, 50yds upwards & about 80yds right.
This happened several times, then a mate of mine turned up. We had a quick chat before I gave him some range balls & a club or two while I continued hitting high slices time & time again.
I hadn't realised he'd stopped hitting & was watching me whilst laughing uncontrollably at my shot shaping abilities .
He then queried my ball position, stating that it was in the middle of my stance. I was gobsmacked & told him it was just in line with my front heel. I lined up again, marked the positions of my feet & checked it out.................he was right!!!
I then moved the ball waaaaay forward, in line with my left heel, and hit some shots. It was a true eureka moment. They were all going long & within five or six yards of dead straight.
Have to go back to the range tomorrow just to make sure that this actually happened................but I'll definitely sleep well tonight.
Moral of the story................don't give up & just re-visit the basics, it's made a huge difference to me!
Good luck,

Slime.

 

[Monty_Brown]

I've dug out a recent video clip of my swing to illustrate the point I made the other day about the clubhead getting far too deep (ie left of my hands from this DTL view) on the backswing.

When the club reaches parallel to the ground on the b/s, the club should ideally be pointing straight back at the camera, with the clubhead actually covering the view of my hands, and the club face at 90* to the swing plane. (edit: this isn't the best camera angle as it's too far right of my body to get the pure DTL view)

My clubhead has tracked back way too far inside the line and hands and arms have rolled open.

This is causing me all sorts of bother on the downswing. The club is too far behind my body and gets "stuck" with me often being unable to square the club face. I get away with it on this shot because I'm only hitting a wedge, so my hands were able to work quick enough to manipulate the clubhead.

Other issues I see are: retaining too much knee flex in the right leg on the backswing, spine is backing off in the downswing, rather than uncoiling and then transferring to a rightward tilt.

Went to the range last night and did some work on keeping the clubhead level with or even slightly outside the hands and not rolling open on the backswing.

Anything anyone else notices, I'd be glad to hear it!

[video=youtube;Ah6Y8XVQVUI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ah6Y8XVQVUI&feature=youtube_gdata[/video]

 

[JustOne]

[video=youtube;_ExzjoUHED0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ExzjoUHED0[/video]

here you go - be kind

On your backswing (once your left arm gets parallel to the ground) your head starts to come up and pull you out of your spine angle a little.

Like Monty's post above, you also allow the clubhead to travel behind you a bit early on the backswing, if you consider taking it a little steeper... it will feel very OTT.... and then rotate a little more on the downswing, allowing you to drop the club back inside..... playing for a 'later hit'.

 

[JustOne]

@Monty....

What sort of ballflight are you getting/struggling with?

 

[Monty_Brown]

James, pushes and even push fades have crept in. The draw is there if I slow things down. Things feel a bit random of late. Lost the consistency of the pattern and shot shape as old swing habits have crept back, hence my current back to basics period revisiting the s and t book.

 

[chris661]

Wanna buy a set of the videos

 

[Slime]

Back to the range yesterday to work on my driving with my newly trialled ball position ( see post #348).
Can't really believe it.................................it's still working.
Hit about 110 drives with three different drivers. Mostly very acceptable.
I managed to throw in the occasional sharp hook & had a spell of several slices when I forgot to keep my weight forward, but most of my shots were within 6 or 7 yards of dead straight, and I'll take that any day of the week.
Distance was reasonable too. They were generally pitching around 210/220 yards with horrible rang balls. A few found the netting at the end which is 250yds away.
I also had a bash with a Tour Edge XCG-5 & a taylor Made RBZ driver, but I'll post my thoughts on these on another thread over the weekend - prepare to be as gob-smacked as I was!

Slime.

 

[JustOne]

James, pushes and even push fades have crept in. The draw is there if I slow things down. Things feel a bit random of late. Lost the consistency of the pattern and shot shape as old swing habits have crept back, hence my current back to basics period revisiting the s and t book.

If you're too flat then it's possible that your shoulders are just fractionally leading an upper body downswing (trying to make the plane steeper so you can hit down on the ball) making your path too straight. Keeping the club outside (as you plan) should help you get a bit more 'reverse loop' sensation where you feel you can take the club up steeper on the backswing and drop it inside (a bit shallower) on the downswing, provided you open your hips into impact you should see good results.

 

[JustOne]

Back to the range yesterday to work on my driving with my newly trialled ball position ( see post #348).
Can't really believe it.................................it's still working.
Hit about 110 drives with three different drivers. Mostly very acceptable.
I managed to throw in the occasional sharp hook & had a spell of several slices when I forgot to keep my weight forward, but most of my shots were within 6 or 7 yards of dead straight, and I'll take that any day of the week.
Distance was reasonable too. They were generally pitching around 210/220 yards with horrible rang balls. A few found the netting at the end which is 250yds away.
I also had a bash with a Tour Edge XCG-5 & a taylor Made RBZ driver, but I'll post my thoughts on these on another thread over the weekend - prepare to be as gob-smacked as I was!

Slime.

Thanks for the update Slime :thup:... we need a vid now

 

[GuitarRich]

Sweet - I did think the club head was coming too far inside. Are there any drills I can try to keep my head still? I'm off to the range tonight with camera to try out a few things - I will try your suggestions.

 

[Monty_Brown]

If you're too flat then it's possible that your shoulders are just fractionally leading an upper body downswing (trying to make the plane steeper so you can hit down on the ball) making your path too straight. Keeping the club outside (as you plan) should help you get a bit more 'reverse loop' sensation where you feel you can take the club up steeper on the backswing and drop it inside (a bit shallower) on the downswing, provided you open your hips into impact you should see good results.

Cheers James. That all makes sense to me. I had a range session where I was getting a feeling of taking the club up on the outside - of course the reality was nothing of the sort, it just felt like that becasue I was used to the club coming way inside. Feel isn't real and all that!

I think this is going to take a while to ingrain so am just going to have to play through it as there are a few comps coming up. The annoying thing is I was hitting it really solid about a month ago, although more due to my timing being spot on than totally reliable swings mechanics I suspect.

 

[Slime]

Thanks for the update Slime :thup:... we need a vid now

Will try to get one over the next few days, it may make an interesting comparison to my last vids!

Slime.

 

[ScienceBoy]

I really do not understand all this talk about stack and tilt, it looks exactly the same as a normal golf swing, everything they say that a "normal" golf swing is something teaching pros tell me is wrong. Everything I get taught is in a stack and tilt swing but I am just learning the swing the pros teach me and its all the same.

I am sure stack and tilt and the normal golf swing teaching pros use is the same thing!

Are all the pros just teaching stack and tilt or are the two things one and the same?