Stack and tilt: let's have a heated debate

[One Planer]

Managed to recover my swing vid from the other night.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAn55oT9AYg

I know the light isn't the best, so the picture below (Yellow line) shows roughly the location of the target green I was trying to hit.

.

I did actually slip which is why I have a bit of a wobble at finish........ It was raining..... so sue me

 

[One Planer]

Aside from giving this thread a gentle bump ( ) I have a question.

I'm slowly intergrating more aspects of S&T into my swing. The latest part I've added is the hands forward at address and through the swing.

Went to the range with it last night and the effect was immediate. My ball flight started off much lower but gradually gained height, and if anything, flew a little higher than my previos strikes.

My question is this.

With my hands being, if you like, pressed slightly more forward than usual. Is the effectivley delofting the club face?

If so

Why am I getting a better, higher, ball flight (Ball starts low and gradually gains height)??

To get an idea of what I mean, look at this video of Mike Bennett

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLjwU_1Cc7o&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PLAE92CA72C4295CB2

If you pause it at 00.00 before he makes a swing, note how far forward his hands are at address.

Mine are not this far forward, but you see my point.

James/Monty Please feel free to confuse me

 

[Monty_Brown]

Funny you should mention the forward hand position as I had a bit of a similar discovery towards the end of my round at the weekend. My ball flight has been getting higher, too high in fact, off the tee. It was nice and straight but it did feel as though I was losing distance through the ball ballooning.

Last few holes I remembered the hand press at address and it did help to produce a lower more penetrating flight.


I suppose the key point is that yes it delofts the club at address, but that's only significant if it affects the way the clubhead meets the ball. If you "throw away" that hand position by hanging back and throwing the hands at impact, you'll not get the benefit.

The flight you're getting sounds good... probably a combo of better face angle and angle of attack.

Without seeing the swing, I'd guess that the soaring flight is coming from either a delofted club face or flatter launch angle. The soaring effect is coming from the amount of spin you are putting on the ball. It may be you have created a steeper angle of attack (could be a + or - angle remember).

James loves all that angle of attack gubbins so will explain more effectively than me.

Any way I've forgotten the original question, so i'll stop rambling!

 

[One Planer]

To be honest Monty, I think you may have hit the nail on the head there. It never occured to me to consider increased spin on the ball.

I was more concerned about the de-lofting aspect at address that spin never occured to me.

Muchos Kudos :thup:

 

[Monty_Brown]

Have a read of BTatHome's AG fitting thread on the main forum. He describes very well how the ball and hand position altered the flight... sort of confirms (with benefit of Trackman) what I was trying to describe. :thup:

 

[One Planer]

Have a read of BTatHome's AG fitting thread on the main forum. He describes very well how the ball and hand position altered the flight... sort of confirms (with benefit of Trackman) what I was trying to describe. :thup:

I've just been reading it (Great minds and all that :cheers: )

 

[JustOne]

If so

Why am I getting a better, higher, ball flight (Ball starts low and gradually gains height)??

Normally it's because you hit the ball harder, with your weight moving forward.

Hitting down doesn't (on it's own) increase spin.

The spin doesn't change unless you maintain the loft whilst increasing the angle of descent.

If you have a face angle of 20° and hit down at -5° you have 25° of effective spin
If you have a face angle of 15° and hit down at -10° you have 25° of effective spin - the same!

It's only when you maintain the 20° AND ALSO hit down at -10° that you get more spin that way... eg 30° in that example. Keep the 20° and hit down at -15° and you now have 35° effective spin angle.

You'd need trackman to tell you what's actually happening on a case by case basis although your divots will tend to show you if you get TOO steep

 

[One Planer]

Update:

As per my previous post, I'm working on getting my hands further forward, both at address and at impact, as to try and introduce so lag into my swing. Had a spare 5 minutes today so went to the course to try and video my current swing.

..... And here it is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfoamgEvz04

Here's my breakdown of what I'm trying to do.

Address:

My hands used to be central, I'm working on moving them forward at address so they are more towards my left thigh.

Half way back:

Making sure my left shoulder is turning down whilst my right leg begins to straighten.

At the top:

Making sure my weight has continued onto my left side (60-40 approx)

Half way down:

Making sure my hip centre has moved in front of the ball, while keeping my shoulder centre in place (Still need work here)

Impact:

Inconclusive here because my camera isn't fast enough to see where my hands are in relation to the ball and shaft at impact. I feel like they are in front but the difference between feel and real as we all know is quite different. I've made a ball first contact. As you can see the ball is airbourne and the divot and the divot is just coming out of the turf

Just after impact:

This is where I struggle. My hands, to me, look as though I've played a punch shot. Is this an indication of added lag in my swing

Half way through follow through:

This is something I've always done and is part of the S&T pattern. I keep my arms straight through impact and right through my follow through. My wrists do not roll until they are roughly level with my face, see below

Finish:

Not the shortened finish Plummer and Bennett prescribe, but that is next on my list to work on. I'm adding more aspects of the pattern to my swing as the previous additions become more ingrained.

I feel the S&T pattern really suits me. As with my thread posted yesterday, I shot my personal best yesterday playing to an 8 handicap. Not low by the standards of some of the chaps on here, but for me it was an eye opener.

I've already completed 2 of my "seasons goals" already (A blob free card and shooting a single figure H/C score).

Any comments on the above, as always, greatly appreciated :thup:

 

[Slime]

Hi Gareth,
I'm trying to adopt S&T, and it's going okay until I pull out my driver.
Your swing looks pretty good mate, you must be very pleased, but, I find S&T reasonably straightforward with irons................my question is..............how are you getting on with your driver?
I've been away, so haven't practiced recently, but I've got a game lined up for next week.
How long were you learning S&T before you took it to the course?
I too play off 18 but haven't taken it to the course yet, except one fun game with 18 temp greens, so I'm not sure whether or not my new swing will do me justice next week. I'm actually playing at Bearwood Lakes so don't want to waste my day!
Looking good Gareth,

Slime.

 

[Slicer30]

Hi gareth,

been following this thread with interest. The swing is coming along nicely.

I notice your left side moves forward during the takeaway/backswing. (see the tree by your left hip - compare the address and halfway back pics). In the second pic the tree trunk is no longer visible and your left knee has moved to the target.

Is that a S+T move?

 

[Slicer30]

Also -when you have your post open and hit "Page Down" key multiple times it creates a little animation of your swing!

 

[One Planer]

Hi Gareth,
I'm trying to adopt S&T, and it's going okay until I pull out my driver.
Your swing looks pretty good mate, you must be very pleased, but, I find S&T reasonably straightforward with irons................my question is..............how are you getting on with your driver?
I've been away, so haven't practiced recently, but I've got a game lined up for next week.
How long were you learning S&T before you took it to the course?
I too play off 18 but haven't taken it to the course yet, except one fun game with 18 temp greens, so I'm not sure whether or not my new swing will do me justice next week. I'm actually playing at Bearwood Lakes so don't want to waste my day!
Looking good Gareth,

Slime.

Slime.

I've always had a centred swingso for me switching to S&T was probably easier than someone coming from a more traditional swing.

I pretty much took it out on the course in pieces. The way I see it is that I play this game for fun, a hobby of you will, so I want to enjoy it. No longer hitting it fat and being able to play to a reasonable level does that for me so I'm happy.

The driver is still a work in progress. I no longer have a booming left to right slice but had developed a push fade which sometimes got me into more trouble. Like I said I'm trying to add some lag to my swing which has helped me hit it straight more often although there is a noticable loss in distance ATM probably because I'm trying to groove the feeling and I'm resisting the urge to club the skin off it.

Keep at it fella. It will come :thup:

Hi gareth,

been following this thread with interest. The swing is coming along nicely.

I notice your left side moves forward during the takeaway/backswing. (see the tree by your left hip - compare the address and halfway back pics). In the second pic the tree trunk is no longer visible and your left knee has moved to the target.

Is that a S+T move?

S30.

The camera angle isn't the best I'm afraid ( I had to rest it on the floor on my range shoes ) so that hasn't done any favors I'm afraid.

The left knee bends forward on the back swing at the right leg begins to straighten. More weight transfers onto my left side through the back swing (to about a 60-40 ratio at the top).

I do move slightly towards the target yes, but the weight never moves back to the right side at any time (reverse pivot). If you look at the picture below (Halfway down) you can see my left knee starts to move outside of left ankle as I slide my hip forward and around, transferring more weight onto my left and shifting my lower (hip) centre forward.


My swing is very much still a work in progress, but it's getting there.

If you have any more questions, feel free to fire away or PM me :thup:

 

[GuitarRich]

Been reading this thread with interest over the last week - I got the book and after reading had my first go on the range today and what a dramatic difference! I wasn't expecting it to be quite so instant with the results, but I can honestly say I've never struck the ball quite so cleanly.

My normal bad shot - or should I say normal shot is a big slice to the right, with the occasional push fade. But today most were straight or a slight draw. Not quite so successful with the driver. But it has encouraged me to keep at the S&T method - thanks for introducing it to me!

 

[Slime]

Been reading this thread with interest over the last week - I got the book and after reading had my first go on the range today and what a dramatic difference! I wasn't expecting it to be quite so instant with the results, but I can honestly say I've never struck the ball quite so cleanly.

My normal bad shot - or should I say normal shot is a big slice to the right, with the occasional push fade. But today most were straight or a slight draw. Not quite so successful with the driver. But it has encouraged me to keep at the S&T method - thanks for introducing it to me!

Glad to hear it fella, I'm also struggling with the driver but my iron shots have never been so crisp! (Albeit only at the range).
Keep us updated and stick with it.
For me it's brought a lot of hope & excitement back to the game and I'm actually taking it to the course next week.
Will let you know how I get on with it. To be honest, I'm not expecting a great score as I've not played a proper round for a few months, but, if it gives me a few good shots & some promise of a good summer, I'll be buzzing.

Slime.

 

[One Planer]

Glad to hear it fella, I'm also struggling with the driver but my iron shots have never been so crisp! (Albeit only at the range).
Keep us updated and stick with it.
For me it's brought a lot of hope & excitement back to the game and I'm actually taking it to the course next week.
Will let you know how I get on with it. To be honest, I'm not expecting a great score as I've not played a proper round for a few months, but, if it gives me a few good shots & some promise of a good summer, I'll be buzzing.

Slime.

You'll be surprised how well you do. Remember the course is plenty different to the range.

I go to the range once a week to work on something specific, never just to hit balls. That's the only time I'll hit 6 iron after 6 iron after 6 iron....... You get the idea.

Get out on the course with it and see how you score. That's the real test for you fella.

 

[GuitarRich]

I am really looking forward to my next round, easing myself in gently tho as just has 3 months off due to back operation. Today was 2nd range visit since - the 1st didn't go so well, although my slice was very consistent .

I think a couple more visits to the range and I'll head to a course full of optimism. Probably come back wanting to drink heavy, but that's what makes this a good game!

 

[One Planer]

I am really looking forward to my next round, easing myself in gently tho as just has 3 months off due to back operation. Today was 2nd range visit since - the 1st didn't go so well, although my slice was very consistent .

I think a couple more visits to the range and I'll head to a course full of optimism. Probably come back wanting to drink heavy, but that's what makes this a good game!

It's like I said to Slime. When your back feels up to it, get yourself out on the course and see how you go. What's the absolute worse that could happen?

 

[JustOne]

Just after impact:

This is where I struggle. My hands, to me, look as though I've played a punch shot. Is this an indication of added lag in my swing

[video=youtube;JdU6_tEAwbs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdU6_tEAwbs[/video]

 

[One Planer]

Nice video James, Illustrates what I'm "trying" to accomplish really well.

Quick question. What is a flying wedge? I hear it banded about quite often and assume it's something to do with the hands at, or just after imapct?

 

[JustOne]

Keep the hands moving forwards so the clubhead doesn't pass the hands until late in the upswing, if at all.... if your rotation stops the clubhead will flip shut and you'll hit low hooks.

If you watch the vid at precisely 1.02 you can see the clubhead still hasn't passed his hands, the left wrist remains flat and the right wrist still has some of it's 'lag angle', it hasn't rolled or crossed over the left at all.