Speed of play

[R G Roden]

All the new suggested rule changes will simply give players more opportunities to take advantage of them. This always happens.
Professional golfers are becoming professional cheats.
I can't believe that no-one is talking about the recent spate of professionals getting a free drop in a bunker, which is still defined as a hazard, when they have a buried lie. Twice in recent European events players who are presented with a poor lie, build a stance (which is also supposed to be illegal), until they hit the bunker liner, and then claim a free drop. This action is calculated action and clearly against the spirit of the game and at least 2 long standing rules, but officials let them get away with it.
The only change that will benefit the game should be to enforce speed of play rules. Every event on every tour is marred by players taking up to three minutes to choose a club, line and re-align putts, work out yardages and factor conditions. I defy anyone to explain to me how four amateurs averaging scores around 90 can get around 18 holes in under 4 hours but two professionals averaging around 70 take 5 hours or longer. It's very simple. The first group out has 3 1/2 hours to complete the round. One stroke penalty for all players in the group for each ten minutes or part ten minutes over this time. Each group following gets the same penalty for falling one hole behind.
Does that sound tough?
Good.
It's sport.
Make the rules tough, the officials tougher, and the players pulled into line.

 

[Doh]

Are you glad you got that off your chest.

 

[Slab]

So shall I put you down as 'undecided'

Welcome to the forum

I watched Patrick Reed yesterday fight tooth & nail for some relief from the rough (which he eventually didn't get) but it took several long minutes for a decision to be made
The pros are naturally looking to explore any possible advantage there might be, not all the players fault though given the money at stake and many do deliberate for a long time on the shot selection

But I'm actually beginning to think its the role of the modern caddie that is having a huge impact in extending tour round times

I think it would be interesting to see what the time impact would be if caddies were not allowed to provide advice to players, yardage yes but nothing else.

So carry, clean, dry, tend flag, rake etc and give the player distances but that's it

I think a few players would go through a sever adjustment period having to think for themselves but overall rounds would speed up

 

[chrisd]

I'd allow the professional to use range finders. All the faffing around to get the yardage is nonsense, they get the correct distance with all the pacing etc so why not just allow a quick blip with a Bushnell and get on with the shot?

 

[Colin L]

The fundamental flaw in penalising all players in a group is that it does not meet any reasonable test of justice. If undue slowness is caused by one player, there is no justice in penalising two others who have been playing at a normal pace but having to hang around waiting for the slow one every shot. I suspect you might refer to peer pressure but it is not right to make any player responsible for controlling the behaviour of another. At a professional level, these men and women are self-employed but sharing the workplace. It is the "management's" responsibility to control the workplace and to deal with individuals who breaks the rules. A player's main responsibility in the rules regarding another player is to attest the score of a fellow competitor but if they have doubts about the validity of that score and refuse to sign the card, that is just a report to the Committee which then has to deal with the matter. One player has no authority over another during the round which making them responsible for another player's slow play would involve.


By the way, I think you are confused about the bunker situations. If you build a stance, you are going to be standing further from the lining than you were when you started. If you legitimately settled your feet into the sand you are on to the lining, you are entitled to relief. If you dig in too much, then you are not as it would be an "unnecessarily abnormal stance" [Exception to Rule 25-1b]. A matter of judgement and if the player is allowed relief by a referee, he has not committed any breach of the rules and is most certainly not cheating.

 

[MrC]

The pros play for the living. They are naturally going to seek any advantage or favourable drop they can. They are in competition to make money and earn ranking points and they wouldn't be doing their job if they didn't try to get all the advantages they can. to be fair if I felt I could get an advantageous ruling I would take it.

Slow play at a pro level - I am not really sure it makes that much difference. People will watch golf regardless of the pace of play and I a sure that when the pros work out their daily schedule they expect and allow for it to be 5 hours at least. When I go to work I allow for a 10 hour day. I should be done in 8 but it never happens so I allow the time it is going to take and I am sure the pros do the same.

Slow play at our level is slightly different because we all have other commitments (jobs/family etc) therefore we want to get round in a reasonable time. Although I really don't see what some of the fuss is. The prize is not the fastest finish it is to shoot the lowest score. sometimes this takes time. However absolutely agree with the frustrations of people being unnecessarily slow (leaving bag wrong side, marking card on the green, not being ready when its your turn)

 

[Bunkermagnet]

The problem I see is that golf is an activity whereby everyone aspires to play like the pros, so slow play is copied.
If the tours wanted to speed up play they could introduce a time limit for each players shot, which could be administered by each match referee with a stop watch that is started when the first players gets to his ball, and the second player to play has his clock started as soon as the
revious players ball is struck. Allow them perhaps thirty seconds per shot and then see how long each groups round takes.

 

[IanM]

I certainly advocate a "fixed time" to complete the round appropriate to the course they are playing.

I am also sure that Pro behaviour is "copied." One of my mates takes an age to get the yardage with his laser, pull the club out, pre shot routine. etc AND none of this starts until it is his turn to play. We've mentioned it to him and he just shrugs...

I also think that the lapsed time for 18 holes is less important than time spent waiting around for someone in front!

 

[rulefan]

The problem I see is that golf is an activity whereby everyone aspires to play like the pros, so slow play is copied.
If the tours wanted to speed up play they could introduce a time limit for each players shot, which could be administered by each match referee with a stop watch that is started when the first players gets to his ball, and the second player to play has his clock started as soon as the
revious players ball is struck. Allow them perhaps thirty seconds per shot and then see how long each groups round takes.

They already have Pace of Play conditions based on time to make a stroke, although they are frequently not enforced.
John Paramor has been getting tight on them recently on the European Tour

 

[Colin L]

The problem I see is that golf is an activity whereby everyone aspires to play like the pros, so slow play is copied.
If the tours wanted to speed up play they could introduce a time limit for each players shot, which could be administered by each match referee with a stop watch that is started when the first players gets to his ball, and the second player to play has his clock started as soon as the
revious players ball is struck. Allow them perhaps thirty seconds per shot and then see how long each groups round takes.

Below is a common pace of play policy (Scottish Golf hard card). You might also be interested in the signs of success the European Tour has been having through implementation of its policy to allow referees to time individual players who are slow without having to wait for group to be out of position (I think that's what it is). https://golfindustrynetwork.ca/european-tour-new-pace-of-play-policy/

4. Pace of Play (Note to Rule 6-7)
(a) Time Allowed:
Each hole has been given a maximum completion time based upon the length and difficulty of the hole. The maximum time allotted for the completion of 18 holes will be distributed to all competitors prior to play.
Definition of Out of Position:
The first group and any group after a starter’s gap will be considered to be “out of position” if, at any time during the round, the group’s cumulative time exceeds the time allowed for the number of holes completed. Any following group will be considered “out of position” if it is more than the starting interval behind the group in front and has exceeded the time allowed for the number of holes played.
(b) Procedure When Group is Out of Position:
1. If a decision is taken to time the group, each player in the group will be subject to individual timing by a rules official. Each player in the group will be advised that they are “out of position” and are being timed.
2. The maximum time allocated per shot is 40 seconds. 10 extra seconds are allowed for the first player to play:
ï‚· on a par three hole;
ï‚· an approach shot; and
ï‚· a chip or putt
The timing will start when a player has had sufficient time to reach his ball, it is his turn to play and he is able to play without interference or distraction.
On the putting green, timing will start when the player has had a reasonable amount of time to lift, clean and replace his ball, repair ball marks and move loose impediments on his line of putt. Time spent looking at the line from beyond the hole and/or behind the ball will count as part of the time taken for the next stroke.
3. Timing ceases when a group is back in position and players will be advised accordingly.
Note: In some circumstances, an individual player, or two players within a group of three, may be timed instead of the entire group.
PENALTY FOR BREACH OF CONDITION:
1 Bad Time
2 Bad Times 3 Bad Times 4 Bad Times
Player will be warned by the official and told that if he has a further bad time he will be penalised
Stroke Play
Penalty of One Stroke
Further Penalty of Two Strokes Disqualification
Match Play
Loss of Hole
Loss of Hole + Final Warning Disqualification

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I'd allow the professional to use range finders. All the faffing around to get the yardage is nonsense, they get the correct distance with all the pacing etc so why not just allow a quick blip with a Bushnell and get on with the shot?

The yardage takes them no time to work out. It's the rest of the faffing around that takes the time.

 

[rulefan]

England Golf and my County use a similar PoP policy but have recently introduced a 'Random Timing' element.
A player may be given a 'bad time' penalty for taking more than 60 seconds to make any stroke at any time.
I have advised a couple of players that they were getting close to the 60 second limit. Neither needed telling twice.

 

[R G Roden]

Are you glad you got that off your chest.

Not realy, I will be glad when the officials start to get tough on time wasters and players who seek to gain unfair advantages.

 

[R G Roden]

That's a step in the right direction, nice to hear.

 

[R G Roden]

It's a good point but the onus is still on the player. I do believe in penalising the whole group. Just like amateur golf it up to everyone in the group to encourage or even demand that slow players speed up.

 

[bobmac]

Every event on every tour is marred by players taking up to three minutes to choose a club, line and re-align putts, work out yardages and factor conditions.

http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/who-are-some-slowest-and-fastest-players-tour-were-naming-names


The Five Slowest Players
1. Nick O'Hearn
Average Time Per Shot: 55 seconds
2. J.B. Holmes
Average Time Per Shot: 52 seconds
3. John Senden
Average Time Per Shot: 51 seconds
4. Kevin Na
Average Time Per Shot: 50 seconds
5. Charlie Wi
Average Time Per Shot: 50 seconds\n

 

[R G Roden]

The first thing pro's would do in this instance is to claim "distraction" when and where it suits them.

 

[R G Roden]

These times stated are not even close to the worst offenders I have seen recently. Michelle Wie took nearly 3 minutes on a 3 foot putt and Fred Couples took 2 minutes just to decide on a club after the previous player had played from the fairway, and he had been in position at his ball for over a minute and a half before that. The list go's on and on.

 

[Colin L]

It's a good point but the onus is still on the player. I do believe in penalising the whole group. Just like amateur golf it up to everyone in the group to encourage or even demand that slow players speed up.

You may believe in it, but how do you justify penalising a player who has encouraged and even demanded that a slow player speed up only for it to have made no difference? How do you justify giving a player the responsibility of a referee - without the authority of one?

 

[rulefan]

The first thing pro's would do in this instance is to claim "distraction" when and where it suits them.

Remember TV calls the tune. The pro tours are not interested as long as the have punters prepared to continue watching. There is no incentive to finish sooner, the longer it takes the more adverts.

High level amateur golf is different. The officials put pressure on players if they are not upto speed.
As they are all volunteers, they are concerned about when they can get home