jim8flog
Journeyman Pro
They will be soon. Part of the forthcoming rule changes. Unless the tours ban them
Speed of play
- Thread starter R G Roden
- Start date
They will be soon. Part of the forthcoming rule changes. Unless the tours ban them
R G Roden
Hacker
Put me down as 'underwhelmed', at the conduct of some pro's and most officials.
R G Roden
Hacker
The players already have the job of referee. They can self penalise and make rulings without consultation. I know penalising all 3 in a group sounds harsh, but the quicker players will sort out the slow ones very quickly when there is money and potential titles at stake.
Colin L
Tour Winner
Making rulings about one's own play is not being a referee; a player cannot make a ruling about another player. I was looking for justification for putting players in the position of regulating the play of other players and being penalised if they didn't succeed. I'm not concerned that it might seem harsh, or convinced that it could work as easily as you suggest. That's irrelevant. The point is that it is unjust. Are you really saying that at an extreme, a player could be docked a stroke and thus lose first place in a tournament because he was unable to persuade another player to play faster?
bobmac
Major Champion
What gives you the right to demand that slow players speed up?
If you want to play fast fine, but you have to accept that some players want to/have to play slower
rulefan
Tour Winner
The OP was aimed at pro tour golf.
If slow (not defined) players hold up others and this affects their game (and ultimately their income), it seems not unreasonable that action should be taken. If other pros are not concerned, where is the issue?
bobmac
Major Champion
Old Skier
Tour Winner
Many club plays won't/don't make formal complaints when they know that a player has cheated, their not going to start making formal complaints about FC being slow.
Trying to get into who was the actual slow player in a group of three is a nightmare with everyone pointing the finger at someone else.
At amateur level I haven't even seen a rules official pick up a slow player.
Trying to get into who was the actual slow player in a group of three is a nightmare with everyone pointing the finger at someone else.
At amateur level I haven't even seen a rules official pick up a slow player.
rulefan
Tour Winner
We try to be discrete about it. Players are usually approached quietly on leaving the green or leaving the tee. But PoP monitoring is a major activity of referees in amateur play. There are very few penalties because the first warning is usually sufficient. We can identify a culprit very quickly.
Old Skier
Tour Winner
Do you identify a culprit or the group? Obviously at club level having someone on every group is not practical so policing becomes more difficult.
rulefan
Tour Winner
Most elite amateur events do not have a referee for each group but cover territories. Gaps in the field are reported forwards and are monitored by the referees ahead. We identify a group which is 'out of position', ask them to catch up and watch them (usually from a distance) for a while. This gives the opportunity to identify the/a possible culprit. The players will know they are being monitored but not always aware there is a watch. No official timing will take place during this time.
If they do not improve their position and if a problem player has been identified he will be timed formally and warned/penalised according the the PoP rule in force.
Quite separately, if a persistently slow player is identified but because the others in the group are fast, the group are in position all the time, we might speak to the player at the end of the round to warn him about his potential for time penalties in other events.
It is unlikely that clubs will have the resources to cover the field in this way. For my club's high profile scratch opens, I am often asked to rove the course in a buggy (labelled Rules) to 'keep an eye open'. Ostensibly I am there to help the players with rulings. Most of the players recognise me and we never have PoP problems.
The major problems arise in open or invitation 4BBBs which I refuse to police. I tuck myself away in a corner and run the big screen score display.
rulie
Head Pro
Could always adopt the "Group Pace of Play" policy. It is used at USGA amateur events. The group is responsible for completing sections of the course in an alotted time, or within so many minutes of the group in front of them. If they don't, they are liable to penalties. The sections of the course are typically hole 1-4, 1-9, 1-13, 1-18. It works.
See the Amateur section in this -
https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/images/pace of play/pace-of-play-at-usga-championships.pdf
See the Amateur section in this -
https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/images/pace of play/pace-of-play-at-usga-championships.pdf
rulefan
Tour Winner
Thanks. As it happens I'm familiar with it. It's also used widely in Canada.
I must admit I'm not a great fan of group penalties
Incidentally, I omitted to mention the 'out of position' means
i) later than the published time that the group must have replace the flagstick at the hole or
ii) more than the starting interval behind the group in front.
ii) does not apply to the first group nor to a group following a gap in the starting order.
Depending on the course, the total time tends to vary between 4.10 and 4.20 for groups of 3. We very rarely run over And then only by a couple of minutes.
Of course the big test is getting the last group in on time - which means we can get home on time
I must admit I'm not a great fan of group penalties
Incidentally, I omitted to mention the 'out of position' means
i) later than the published time that the group must have replace the flagstick at the hole or
ii) more than the starting interval behind the group in front.
ii) does not apply to the first group nor to a group following a gap in the starting order.
Depending on the course, the total time tends to vary between 4.10 and 4.20 for groups of 3. We very rarely run over And then only by a couple of minutes.
Of course the big test is getting the last group in on time - which means we can get home on time
Colin L
Tour Winner
As you will know, having read through the thread, I have a fundamental objection to group penalties on the basis that it is totally unjust to penalise one player for the misdemeanours of another. How say you?
rulie
Head Pro
I'm ok with making the group responsible for playing within the allotted times. The policy does allow for anyone in the group to identify the offender to a Rules official during the round. It is still possible to penalize an individual instead of the group.
Colin L
Tour Winner
Then why penalise the group?
It's fine that you are ok with making the group responsible, but what is the moral defence for doing so?
rulie
Head Pro
If the group do not meet the required time, they are all individually responsible. The pace of play policy is in the CoC as permitted in Rule 6-7.
Colin L
Tour Winner
That is just a statement of what the situation is, not a moral defence of permitting one person to be punished for the behaviour of another.
The penalties in 6-7 are all individual. There is no mention of group penalties.
Consider a situation where in a group of 3, Mr Snail is inordinately slow. Despite all the cajoling and remonstrating of the other two players, he simply will not change his routine in any way and speed up. As a result of a policy which penalises a whole group, two players whose individual play came nowhere near a penalty under 6-7, are penalised. How can that be justified?
The penalties in 6-7 are all individual. There is no mention of group penalties.
Consider a situation where in a group of 3, Mr Snail is inordinately slow. Despite all the cajoling and remonstrating of the other two players, he simply will not change his routine in any way and speed up. As a result of a policy which penalises a whole group, two players whose individual play came nowhere near a penalty under 6-7, are penalised. How can that be justified?
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rulie
Head Pro
The other players playing with Mr. Snail have the opportunity to identify Mr. Snail as the cause of the group's problem to a Rules official as soon as they are aware of their plight. Mr. Snail can be monitored. The group may be liable for a penalty but monitoring may excuse the other players and only penalize Mr. Snail.
One of the governing bodies endorses and uses this group pace of play policy, so it is obviously within the Rules.
Colin L
Tour Winner
None of that actually addresses the question of the moral justification for penalising a player for the behaviour of another: it just repeats what the situation is. The pace of play policies exemplified by the Scottish Golf one I posted earlier, identifies and penalises any individual player who is playing too slowly and do so without any other player even having to point the finger at the offending one. It is all in the hands of the referees. The European Tour, as mentioned, is now taking that a bit further by identifying individuals at an earlier stage as is England Golf, I understand. A move in the right direction of dealing with a slow player as early as possible.
Have you ever come across that appalling piece of injustice by a teacher of giving a whole class a punishment because someone had misbehaved and the teacher couldn't identify the culprit? A group punishment in golf is no different. I did not allow my teaching staff to do this, but had I done so, they could have said it's within the rules because the boss said it was ok. It wouldn't have made it any the less unjust, any more than the USGA saying group penalties are ok make them any the less unjust.
Ah well, I seem to be a lone voice which has probably said enough ..... unless someone comes up with an argument in support of the justice of group punishments. My small comfort is that they are not likely to happen at my club, are they?
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