Speed of play

[clubchamp98]

Moral arguments are just personal opinions???? Wow. To hold a moral objection to a course of action is hardly "whining about it". Slow play can be, and is managed without unfairness.

I wondered if the "it works so it it's all right" argument would emerge. That's what Donald Trump says about waterboarding.

I agree with you Colin If I was penalised because someone else was slow I would not be very happy.
This is typical punish all players so they self police.
We mostly know who the slow ones are but the club still let them out at the front of the field.
Deal with them , put them out last game for six weeks together and see if they soon speed up.

 

[rulefan]

Group penalties have two associated problems.
They don't work beyond that competition as that group is rarely drawn together again.
They cause issues with other members of the group, with the innocent resenting the guilty and also resenting the referee. The latter will often cause friction whenever an innocent player has to ask for a ruling from that referee in other competitions

 

[rulie]

Group penalties have two associated problems.
They don't work beyond that competition as that group is rarely drawn together again.
They cause issues with other members of the group, with the innocent resenting the guilty and also resenting the referee. The latter will often cause friction whenever an innocent player has to ask for a ruling from that referee in other competitions

Out of curiosity, how many tournaments have you worked where the USGA (or similar) group pace of play was in place?

 

[duncan mackie]

Out of curiosity, how many tournaments have you worked where the USGA (or similar) group pace of play was in place?

Whilst Rulefan will be along in due course to respond to the specific question, I think its important to clarify it a little...
All the professional competitions I have worked on are based on the same model - group pop triggers clock (subject to discussion, reasons/excuses, warning at group level...on the clock) and now it's individuals shot clock. Still includes elements of the concerns that he, Rulefan, outlined above, but at least individual now have control - even if they are neither happy to be under that pressure nor responsible in any way for getti g to that point.

 

[Old Skier]

Let's be honest, how many on here who have acted as officials have ever penalized anyone for slow pay and as the R&A and USPGA only pick on minor players where is the backing coming from by the ruling bodies.

 

[rulefan]

Out of curiosity, how many tournaments have you worked where the USGA (or similar) group pace of play was in place?

In fact none. My impression is based on the experiences of colleagues in the USA and Canada.
'Slow' groups are easy to spot at any stage in their round even with roving referees and are of course the trigger for action. But I have found that isolating the offender is not a problem. Once warned and possibly put on the clock keeps the rest of the group happy and only puts pressure on one player.

 

[duncan mackie]

Let's be honest, how many on here who have acted as officials have ever penalized anyone for slow pay and as the R&A and USPGA only pick on minor players where is the backing coming from by the ruling bodies.

Whilst I've put group's on the clock they have always responded and got back into position. Once they come off the clock individuals do, noticeably, start to take their time again...

Personally I don't think there's any easy solution; but there is scope for a more aggressive approach. Reduce the warning cycle so that group's are put on the individual shot clock more quickly. I'm not sure about whether it would be better to have individuals stay on the shot clock once they have triggered it - regardless of whether they get back into position. On balance I don't think so.

 

[rulie]

Let's be honest, how many on here who have acted as officials have ever penalized anyone for slow pay and as the R&A and USPGA only pick on minor players where is the backing coming from by the ruling bodies.

Well, put me in the category of having penalized players for breach of the pace of play policy that is in effect at the time - in both match play and stroke play, and both with and without the group pace of play (similar to USGA) in effect.
The group pace of play is more effective than the "shot clock" method and does not tie up Rules officials in 'herding the cats'.
I've probably refereed at 15 events that use the group pace of play and have never seen, heard or experienced the issues surfaced by rulefan.

 

[rulefan]

Well, put me in the category of having penalized players for breach of the pace of play policy that is in effect at the time - in both match play and stroke play, and both with and without the group pace of play (similar to USGA) in effect.
The group pace of play is more effective than the "shot clock" method and does not tie up Rules officials in 'herding the cats'.
I've probably refereed at 15 events that use the group pace of play and have never seen, heard or experienced the issues surfaced by rulefan.

How many pop penalties have you had to give?

Of a dozen or so 'on the clock' I have had to penalise less than a handful.
The only one that stands out was one under the 60 second random timing that we introduced recently.

 

[rulie]

How many pop penalties have you had to give?

Of a dozen or so 'on the clock' I have had to penalise less than a handful.
The only one that stands out was one under the 60 second random timing that we introduced recently.

Several - two involved loss of hole in match play with individual timings, ie, on the clock. Others have involved the group pace of play where the whole group has been penalized - most severe was one group who earned three strokes total (1+2). If the time par is established correctly, there are very few warnings (none in the two events last month). In fact, in a junior stroke play event last month, the last group (three-ball) finished in less than 4 hours. A major benefit to the referees in the group pace of play is that there is no need for the referees to look for or react to "gaps" between groups. In fact, there's no need for referees to interact with the players on pace of play until the round is over. They can focus on Rules other than 6-7. There have been many potential referees who were turned off, and quit, by the workload of chasing the players around the course.

 

[Colin L]

But still no counter-argument to my principled objection to one player's being penalised for the actions of another.

 

[rulie]

But still no counter-argument to my principled objection to one player's being penalised for the actions of another.

That's your issue/opinion; it's not shared by the USGA and other golf associations that use the group pace of play policy. You can take it up with them.

 

[rulefan]

I'm only aware of the US and Canada using it. But they are notorious for slow play problems anyway. I get the impression it is endemic

 

[bobmac]

That's your issue/opinion; it's not shared by the USGA and other golf associations that use the group pace of play policy. You can take it up with them.

Are you saying if you were playing in a 3 ball and one player was very slow, all 3 could be penalised for the actions of one?

 

[Colin L]

That's your issue/opinion; it's not shared by the USGA and other golf associations that use the group pace of play policy. You can take it up with them.

I don't need to take up with the USGA as I only play and officiate in R&A territory. I was just hoping that someone would come up with a justification for penalising the innocent - which is rather more than just "my issue/opinion". The hope of a discussion, that's all. But it's clearly not to be.

One question, though. Is a group penalty system in place at the Masters, the US Open or the PGA Championship?

 

[rulie]

Rhetorical question. Those competitions have a sufficient number of qualified referees to deal with pace of play.

 

[Colin L]

It was actually a straightforward question looking for a straightforward yes or no answer. The referees can only deal with pace of play within a stated policy and I wondered what the policy was in the US majors.

 

[Old Skier]

It was actually a straightforward question looking for a straightforward yes or no answer. The referees can only deal with pace of play within a stated policy and I wondered what the policy was in the US majors.

Like the R&A, I doubt if you'll see any penalties in the top USPGA events amongst the top players so basically it's all pie in the sky.

 

[R G Roden]

But still no counter-argument to my principled objection to one player's being penalised for the actions of another.

If the players knew that it was a group penalty, and would be enforced, they would speed up.

 

[rulie]

Are you saying if you were playing in a 3 ball and one player was very slow, all 3 could be penalised for the actions of one?

Yes, that could happen, but the players are totally aware of the pace of play policy and have an "out" to prevent it from happening (explained in earlier posts) - just inform a referee and have the group monitored (monitoring can include timing of individual players). Discussion will occur at the scoring table when the group's performance, or lack thereof, is reviewed with them.
Obviously, imo, Colin's objections to the policy are addressed within the policy. It seems that the group pace of play policy is not used outside of North America, but it is well used, well understood and well appreciated by amateur players in North America. Then they turn professional....and completely forget what they learned as amateurs.