Soft and hard caps kicking in following re-rating

clubchamp98

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Where would the shot before you have to clear the water have landed? How far would you have to carry to clear the water? It's only difficult if you can't carry far enough.
Incidentally, where is the fairway? Hopefully not the scratty area in the foreground.
People carry the ball different lengths!
So what’s easy for some is hard for others.

But I just can’t see how putting a lake on the course makes it easier for anyone.
Only thing is as Ian says “ you don’t have to go back to the tee.”
but without the water you might find your ball.

Bonkers!,
 

Alan Clifford

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People carry the ball different lengths!
So what’s easy for some is hard for others.

But I just can’t see how putting a lake on the course makes it easier for anyone.
Only thing is as Ian says “ you don’t have to go back to the tee.”
but without the water you might find your ball.

Bonkers!,
It's the whole course, not just the hole with the new dam. I'm not sure whether the club liaison manager was joking in an email to me, "... the change revolves around a difference in average wind speed and fairway cut".
 

clubchamp98

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It's the whole course, not just the hole with the new dam. I'm not sure whether the club liaison manager was joking in an email to me, "... the change revolves around a difference in average wind speed and fairway cut".
Right that makes more sense.
So they made it harder putting in a lake.
Then made it easier everywhere else.!😳
 

jim8flog

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But our adjusted gross scores will be desloped by a different slope than before..... So we're bound to end up with different indexes given the same gross.
A gross of, say 94, will be de-sloped with the new slope rating rather than the old one.

Yes right addled brain this morning.

To answer to the original question the only was I can think of doing it is to get your H/C sec to reset all players low index.
 

wjemather

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Wow, never considered that.

My club in South Africa has had the course rerated following the building of a lake. They thought it would be harder but it is now considered easier. Looking at a score of 94 last March, I'll now have to shoot 90 to get the same differential. Or, put another way, a 94 will result in the differential being 3.8 higher.
Usually, the only way a Course Rating changes by that much with re-rating is due to length, either actual or playing. So something like wildly inaccurate old or new measurements, dramatically changed forced layup distances, etc.
Changes in playing characteristics, such and green speed and rough height, can have a big effect on Slope, but they would have to be extreme changes to significantly affect Course Rating.
 

wjemather

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Our course was re-rated in the back end of 2023 such that the slope and CR went down. Our soft and hard caps are now all kicking in which stops people bothering with GP cards (rightly or wrongly). Is this a fault in "the system" and should the caps get reset in some way (and how)?
If your ratings were that far out that the caps are now being triggered as a direct result of re-rating, then everyone's Low Handicap Index will probably need to be reset.
Out of curiosity, what were/are the old/new ratings?
 

tobybarker

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Usually, the only way a Course Rating changes by that much with re-rating is due to length, either actual or playing. So something like wildly inaccurate old or new measurements, dramatically changed forced layup distances, etc.
Changes in playing characteristics, such and green speed and rough height, can have a big effect on Slope, but they would have to be extreme changes to significantly affect Course Ratin
If your ratings were that far out that the caps are now being triggered as a direct result of re-rating, then everyone's Low Handicap Index will probably need to be reset.
Out of curiosity, what were/are the old/new ratings?
Was 70 and 122
Now 67.7 and 103

And every one says we are a actually a hard course to play and now every player gets fewer shots.
 
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rulie

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That’s a very significant change in slope. Were there any explanations provided by the rating team/county? Certainly should have been imo.
 

tobybarker

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That’s a very significant change in slope. Were there any explanations provided by the rating team/county? Certainly should have been imo.
Don't know when and how it was last rated, but wg Indian us that we're an early recipient of a new rating methodology, and that everyone will potentially suffer the same fate (a 10 year cycle to all clubs in Wales, apparently). It may well be the old rating was wrong, i can believe that... It's not a long course particularly.... But they go largely on landing areas now. With minimal effect of other factors, they said we could appeal but unlikely to get much of a change.... There's no subjectivity about the process.....just a bix ticking exercise.,....
 

wjemather

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Don't know when and how it was last rated, but wg Indian us that we're an early recipient of a new rating methodology, and that everyone will potentially suffer the same fate (a 10 year cycle to all clubs in Wales, apparently). It may well be the old rating was wrong, i can believe that... It's not a long course particularly.... But they go largely on landing areas now. With minimal effect of other factors, they said we could appeal but unlikely to get much of a change.... There's no subjectivity about the process.....just a bix ticking exercise.,....
A subjective course rating system would be very inconsistent and defeat the whole purpose.
 

rulefan

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Don't know when and how it was last rated, but wg Indian us that we're an early recipient of a new rating methodology, and that everyone will potentially suffer the same fate (a 10 year cycle to all clubs in Wales, apparently). It may well be the old rating was wrong, i can believe that... It's not a long course particularly.... But they go largely on landing areas now. With minimal effect of other factors, they said we could appeal but unlikely to get much of a change.... There's no subjectivity about the process.....just a bix ticking exercise.,....
Wales would seem to be rather behind the pace. They should all have been rerated to USGA spec before WHS. I'm not sure what the old Wales Golf rating system was but after 10 years it will likely to be very different.
Can you give us the current length ?
 

Swango1980

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Don't know when and how it was last rated, but wg Indian us that we're an early recipient of a new rating methodology, and that everyone will potentially suffer the same fate (a 10 year cycle to all clubs in Wales, apparently). It may well be the old rating was wrong, i can believe that... It's not a long course particularly.... But they go largely on landing areas now. With minimal effect of other factors, they said we could appeal but unlikely to get much of a change.... There's no subjectivity about the process.....just a bix ticking exercise.,....
If much subjectivity was allowed in the process, nearly every course would probably have a CR of 80+ and Slope 150+

Everyone remembers the one or 2 (minimum) bad shots they play in a round, where they are stuck in knee height rough, OB or hit it into a penalty area. They then walk off thinking of it, at best, as a challenging experience and at worst a nightmare course to play.

Of course, if they play the course enough times, they'll forget the handful of rounds they score really well, strike the middle of the fairway every time (either by good golf or getting away with the odd poor shot), able to reach a lot of greens in regulation (compared to longer courses) and make a lot of good putts on fairly flat greens, etc. It'll still be the 60%+ rounds they play where they can't beat their handicap, and struggle through a lot of the round.

Removing subjectivity as much as possible is crucial, as every golfer will have different experiences on the same course. A golfer who fades the ball could have a very different experience to one who hits a draw. A big hitter and short hitter could have very different experiences.
 

tobybarker

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If much subjectivity was allowed in the process, nearly every course would probably have a CR of 80+ and Slope 150+

Everyone remembers the one or 2 (minimum) bad shots they play in a round, where they are stuck in knee height rough, OB or hit it into a penalty area. They then walk off thinking of it, at best, as a challenging experience and at worst a nightmare course to play.

Of course, if they play the course enough times, they'll forget the handful of rounds they score really well, strike the middle of the fairway every time (either by good golf or getting away with the odd poor shot), able to reach a lot of greens in regulation (compared to longer courses) and make a lot of good putts on fairly flat greens, etc. It'll still be the 60%+ rounds they play where they can't beat their handicap, and struggle through a lot of the round.

Removing subjectivity as much as possible is crucial, as every golfer will have different experiences on the same course. A golfer who fades the ball could have a very different experience to one who hits a draw. A big hitter and short hitter could have very different experiences.
I don't disagree.. That's not the point of the thread
 

tobybarker

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I was only replying to your last point in bold. I wasn't sure what the implication was, but assumed the suggestion was having subjectivity would be a good thing?
Ok. No, subjectivity leads to chaos. But the "difficulty" of our course lies in the conditions you have to play it in. No, my point was the problem in the caps system when your cr and slope get changed
 

rulefan

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We have been given new USGA rating guides which are thinner than the previous version. The Form 1 is "simpler" but that really only refers to some of the options having less choice I believe.
There have been minimal changes.
Raters guide book is thinner due to different paper/printing.
Process and principles remain the same.
 
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