Scottish v English football

[ger147]

So after last nights results it's looking very likely that Scotland will have no representative teams left in Europe before the season even starts - they have reached the levels of the Welsh and Irish League - will it only get worse ?

I very much doubt that Celtic will make the next round of CL qualifiers, but they're not out of Europe if they don't make it.

They drop into the Europa League final qualifying round if they fail to make the final CL qualifier.

But on the general theme, yes it will get worse as Scottish clubs, including Celtic simply cannot compete at the top table of European football due to the huge difference in their income vs what teams from other countries have.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I very much doubt that Celtic will make the next round of CL qualifiers, but they're not out of Europe if they don't make it.

They drop into the Europa League final qualifying round if they fail to make the final CL qualifier.

But on the general theme, yes it will get worse as you Scottish clubs, including Celtic simply cannot compete at the top table of European football due to the huge difference in their income vs what teams from other countries get.

Is that a by product from the lack of competition for Celtic after Rangers got relegated ? It's pretty much a done deal before hand so it's hard to sell a product to telly companies with so little competition and small quality ?

Before the Old Firm games alone managed to sell a decent product worth buying for telly companies.

Increase the competition and standard and the contacts for telly increase possibly ?

 

[chris661]

Is that a by product from the lack of competition for Celtic after Rangers got relegated ? It's pretty much a done deal before hand so it's hard to sell a product to telly companies with so little competition and small quality ?

Before the Old Firm games alone managed to sell a decent product worth buying for telly companies.

Increase the competition and standard and the contacts for telly increase possibly ?

Rangers never got relegated.

It has nothing to do with the perceived "quality" that playing against each other brought either. It is all to do with the ludicrous sums of money the "top" teams in Europe get compared to the smaller nations.

 

[ger147]

Is that a by product from the lack of competition for Celtic after Rangers got relegated ? It's pretty much a done deal before hand so it's hard to sell a product to telly companies with so little competition and small quality ?

Before the Old Firm games alone managed to sell a decent product worth buying for telly companies.

Increase the competition and standard and the contacts for telly increase possibly ?

No, nothing to do with the Rangers thing. Things have been getting steadily worse for a number of years and both Celtic and Rangers have on occasion managed to punch well above their weight on the European stage but those days are all but over as the gap gets wider and wider year on year.

The Rangers situation is a red herring as far as Scottish clubs in Europe is concerned. The last year Celtic & Rangers were in the SPL together, Celtic got £2m from Sky as their share of the TV money. Wayne Rooney earns that every 6-7 weeks.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Doesn't that money come from telly companies paying the bigger deals for the better quality football ?

The telly companies are paying a billion pounds deals for these top leagues for a reason surely ?

Increase the competition and quality then increase the appeal of the league for players and telly companies and the money follows it - people will pay for a better product

 

[ger147]

Doesn't that money come from telly companies paying the bigger deals for the better quality football ?

The telly companies are paying a billion pounds deals for these top leagues for a reason surely ?

Increase the competition and quality then increase the appeal of the league for players and telly companies and the money follows it - people will pay for a better product

My point was it has nothing to do with the Rangers situation as Scottish clubs already got a pittance compared to the big countries and that gap was getting wider every year.

On top of that, the European system is grossly unfair to the smaller nations as some countries (like England for example) have the team finishing 4th only having to negotiate 1 qualifying round to get into the CL and teams finishing 3rd getting straigh in, where as smaller nations (for example Scotland) have their champions having to negotiate 3 qualifying rounds in their off season. And if they DO manage to negotiate all 3 rounds and make the CL groups, all UEFA co-efficient points they earned in those matches are scapped and only results in the group stages count towards their co-efficient.

It's all set up so only the big teams from the big leagues make it as that is clearly what UEFA want.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Doesn't that money come from telly companies paying the bigger deals for the better quality football ?

The telly companies are paying a billion pounds deals for these top leagues for a reason surely ?

Increase the competition and quality then increase the appeal of the league for players and telly companies and the money follows it - people will pay for a better product

But the point is that the product could not be sold even when Rangers were in the SPL as there is no interest. Just look at matchday attendances.

Sky and BBC have both tried but there is no real interest south of the border in the Old Firm games other than from Scots living in England.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Where the Scottish clubs enter the comp and how many places etc is all based on previous performances in the comp - Italy for example lost a place , so have Germany in the past - perform better and the co efficient is better. The tournament is weighted to get the best teams playing in the leagues - of Celtic had one performed to a better level in the past they would,be straight into the groups.

I believe it's all flowing down from a severe lack of competition in your national league for Celtic - sort out the national league , increase the quality , get the money from the telly deals , get the better players and perform better in Europe and then get a better share of the pot. But until the domestic league is strengthen then things will get worse - Celtic need competition

 

[Deleted member 15344]

But the point is that the product could not be sold even when Rangers were in the SPL as there is no interest. Just look at matchday attendances.

Sky and BBC have both tried but there is no real interest south of the border in the Old Firm games other than from Scots living in England.

Then there is only one way it's going - further backwards.

At least with Rangers in the league there was some sort of competition and the product was actually bought for a fee - and it was bought abroad as well

 

[HomerJSimpson]

It will be a retrospective drop for Celtci to be in the Europa cup play offs and no guarantee that they'll get through that although they should. They need to be playing CL to get the recenue and attract players really. Not a good result for the other Scottish sides either. A real shame if no one gets through or it's just Celtic in the Europa league. That said, it ain't over yet with the second leg still to play!

 

[ger147]

Where the Scottish clubs enter the comp and how many places etc is all based on previous performances in the comp - Italy for example lost a place , so have Germany in the past - perform better and the co efficient is better. The tournament is weighted to get the best teams playing in the leagues - of Celtic had one performed to a better level in the past they would,be straight into the groups.

I believe it's all flowing down from a severe lack of competition in your national league for Celtic - sort out the national league , increase the quality , get the money from the telly deals , get the better players and perform better in Europe and then get a better share of the pot. But until the domestic league is strengthen then things will get worse - Celtic need competition

The co-efficient thing is simply not the case. If it was, how come Celtic's co-efficient has gone down despite several recent trips to the last 16 of the CL? It should be going up when they succeed but it's actually going down.

The UEFA co-efficient is set up to ensure the majority of the clubs in the CL are from the big nations.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

The co-efficient thing is simply not the case. If it was, how come Celtic's co-efficient has gone down despite several recent trips to the last 16 of the CL? It should be going up when they succeed but it's actually going down.

The UEFA co-efficient is set up to ensure the majority of the clubs in the CL are from the big nations.

They did go up a small percentage when they won and go through to the last 16 - but they also get let down by the other teams and two bad years which they had effect them - one year they got 2 points for one win. It is certainly weighted towards the teams doing well . Rangers in 11/12 got 12 points which helped Scotland get a spot in the group stages - but the results since then from both teams haven't helped.

 

[ger147]

They did go up a small percentage when they won and go through to the last 16 - but they also get let down by the other teams and two bad years which they had effect them - one year they got 2 points for one win. It is certainly weighted towards the teams doing well . Rangers in 11/12 got 12 points which helped Scotland get a spot in the group stages - but the results since then from both teams haven't helped.

Liverpool are currently 45th on the list and go straight into the CL groups. Celtic are currently 55th on the list and have 3 qualifying rounds in July.

So automatic CL group places has little to do with prior performances. Hopelessly biased against the small nations.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Liverpool are currently 45th on the list and go straight into the CL groups. Celtic are currently 55th on the list and have 3 qualifying rounds in July.

So automatic CL group places has little to do with prior performances. Hopelessly biased against the small nations.

The automatic places are awarded based on the combined countries co effiecents and are a reward from previous performances by the clubs of that country

Scotland lost theirs when Rangers dropped out of Europe and no one could replace them in terms of performance levels.

 

[ger147]

The automatic places are awarded based on the combined countries co effiecents and are a reward from previous performances by the clubs of that country Scotland lost theirs when Rangers dropped out of Europe and no one could replace them in terms of performance levels.

That's incorrect, Scotland had already lost a CL place before the Rangers stuff happened.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Liverpool are currently 45th on the list and go straight into the CL groups. Celtic are currently 55th on the list and have 3 qualifying rounds in July.

So automatic CL group places has little to do with prior performances. Hopelessly biased against the small nations.

Totally sums up how the smaller nations [no matter how talented] have no chance against the countries with the big TV audiences.
The whole process is as bent as a five bob note.

A fairly average Hearts team taking Liverpool to the limit a couple of years ago shows what the real difference is.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

That's incorrect, Scotland had already lost a CL place before the Rangers stuff happened.

2011/12 lost a place in the CL due to poor performances of all Scottish clubs in bot competitions and dropping out of the top 15 in Europe.

The stronger your teams are the more places you have - it means a better quality competition - again improve the Scottish teams and you improve the results in Europe.

The co efficient will only keep dropping if they keep playing poorly - and there are smaller clubs than Celtic etc that perform and keep their place in the CL

 

[ger147]

2011/12 lost a place in the CL due to poor performances of all Scottish clubs in bot competitions and dropping out of the top 15 in Europe.

The stronger your teams are the more places you have - it means a better quality competition - again improve the Scottish teams and you improve the results in Europe.

The co efficient will only keep dropping if they keep playing poorly - and there are smaller clubs than Celtic etc that perform and keep their place in the CL

2011/12 was before the Rangers nonsense as I said above.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Totally sums up how the smaller nations [no matter how talented] have no chance against the countries with the big TV audiences.
The whole process is as bent as a five bob note.

A fairly average Hearts team taking Liverpool to the limit a couple of years ago shows what the real difference is.

One off games don't show differences - no matter how many times you try and tell yourself. The difference between the Scottish league and Prem is vast

Far too busy trying to look to blame others without looking at the standard of your own - improve the quality and competition of your league and then the rest will follow

There are a number of small leagues that continuely manage to qualify for CL year in year out .

 

[Deleted member 15344]

2011/12 was before the Rangers nonsense as I said above.

It was - so maybe it's worse than I thought and the standard was dropping a number of years ago.