Scorecards should be fluid

[jim8flog]

I am reminded of a story from many years ago. One guy qualified for the finals of a National Tournament away from his home course. He was getting really worried about it as it was a more difficult course. He had picked up a card for the course, then one of his mates took the card from him and changed all the pars on the card to something suiting his ability - stress gone.

I regularly play with a 28 handicap player who always moans about not getting pars I have told him on more than one occasion there are only 2 holes on the card where he should be thinking par.

 

[jim8flog]

Dr Stableford solved that problem over 100 years ago.

Trouble is he never expected anybody to be given 2 or more shots on a hole

 

[JGolfer]

Crikey. Too much thinking.

Surely just think, "I get two shots here!"

You’d think. My dad plays off 31, and a mate of mine off 27. I play off 4. Are SI 1 is a 454 yard par 4. Both of them know they get two shots. Both of them can’t reach in two. Both of them always try to reach in two.

When I ask them why their reply is simple “it’s a par 4, I’m meant to reach in 2”

Knowing you get two shots, but mentally applying it are two different skill sets.

I agree with OP to an extent. But at the same time, the lower your handicap the less you expectations need to be managed. I know I get a shot on our 4 hardest. But I par those holes as much as I bogey them.

Also if I was a 5hcap and a friend was 4. And we played SI 5, which was a par 3 for him but a par 4 on my card, I would be extremely offended. Yes I know I would get a shot there. But even knowing I get a shot, I’m not aiming to lay up on a scratch par 3. We could hit the ball the same distance, and our only difference be putting etc.

 

[inc0gnito]

A couple of posts there have provided anecdotal evidence for what I suggest.

It seems folk think I’m trying to change the face of golf and taking great offence.

I’m introducing an idea that’s simple to implement and can be taken or leaven by any individual golfer.

 

[jim8flog]

At the end of the day the concept shows very much the difference between the modern and the older generation.

The modern generation expect an app for everything, the older generation see nothing wrong with a pencil.

 

[sunshine]

This type of fluid scorecard system would be cumbersome for paper scorecards.

I am guessing that the OP is a new golfer, and doesn't play in competitions / isn't a member at a club.

The "fluid scoring system" exists already, it's called stroke index (SI) and is displayed on every scorecard.

If you are a 15 handicapper, you get an extra shot on SI ranked holes 1-15.
If you are a 24 handicapper, you get 2 shots on SI holes 1-6, and 1 shot on every other hole. So if the SI1 hole is a par 4, the 24 handicap player can consider this a par 6.

Alignment of SI and difficulty is another conversation entirely, but for the purposes of this thread it does the job.

 

[Golfnut1957]

Absolutely no idea what you are trying to say.

Cognition is a term referring to the mental processes involved in gaining knowledge and comprehension. These cognitive processes include thinking, knowing, remembering, judging, and problem-solving.

I'm looking for an app to explain the "golf is hard" bit

 

[nickjdavis]

I was thinking more a handicap adjusted standard approach. So two different people with the same handicap would have the same adjusted scorecard. Again, it’s to change perceptions, not actual scoring.

.

But that doesn't work at all. My perception of what I might score on a hole is pretty much going to be totally different to another player with the same handicap as me.

Perception will vary based on many factors....how far a player hits the ball, what shot shape the player generally plays, how low/high the player hits the ball, how the player might be intimidated by certain course/geographical features...narrow fairways, playing over water....topography and layout of the hole.

Take our courses 13th hole. Index 1, 456yds. If this was a flat hole then I could probably make the green in 2 shots pretty much most of the time. But its not....the first 300 yards are uphill and your second shot is played from an uphill lie, turning my 3 wood into maybe a 5 or 6 wood equivalent. I play this hole as a 3 shotter, with the intention of giving myself a reasonable 1 putt for par from around 60-70 yards....if I walk off with bogey that's fine....on the occasions where I hit birdie (possibly 3 times in 21 years of playing the hole) I'm ecstatic and the "100" other shots I hit during that round are instantly forgotten about.

My mate who is maybe a shot better than me, hits fairway wood well past my drive...he expects to be on the green or at least very very close to it in 2.....his expectation is that he wants two putts for his par...or at worst a chip from within 10 yards of the green and a putt. He is a tad grumpy with a bogey, happy with a par and delighted with a birdie.

There are other holes where our perceptions are the same and further others where I perceive it to be easier than he does. You cant just lump everyone in the same boat.

 

[inc0gnito]

I am guessing that the OP is a new golfer, and doesn't play in competitions / isn't a member at a club.

The "fluid scoring system" exists already, it's called stroke index (SI) and is displayed on every scorecard.

If you are a 15 handicapper, you get an extra shot on SI ranked holes 1-15.
If you are a 24 handicapper, you get 2 shots on SI holes 1-6, and 1 shot on every other hole. So if the SI1 hole is a par 4, the 24 handicap player can consider this a par 6.

Alignment of SI and difficulty is another conversation entirely, but for the purposes of this thread it does the job.

You miss the point of this altogether. Please reread.

 

[inc0gnito]

Cognition is a term referring to the mental processes involved in gaining knowledge and comprehension. These cognitive processes include thinking, knowing, remembering, judging, and problem-solving.

I'm looking for an app to explain the "golf is hard" bit

I’ve a BSc, MSc and PhD in psychology related degrees and I still don’t know what your original point was. I’m not being inflammatory, I just really do not understand the wording of your original post.

 

[inc0gnito]

But that doesn't work at all. My perception of what I might score on a hole is pretty much going to be totally different to another player with the same handicap as me.

Perception will vary based on many factors....how far a player hits the ball, what shot shape the player generally plays, how low/high the player hits the ball, how the player might be intimidated by certain course/geographical features...narrow fairways, playing over water....topography and layout of the hole.

Take our courses 13th hole. Index 1, 456yds. If this was a flat hole then I could probably make the green in 2 shots pretty much most of the time. But its not....the first 300 yards are uphill and your second shot is played from an uphill lie, turning my 3 wood into maybe a 5 or 6 wood equivalent. I play this hole as a 3 shotter, with the intention of giving myself a reasonable 1 putt for par from around 60-70 yards....if I walk off with bogey that's fine....on the occasions where I hit birdie (possibly 3 times in 21 years of playing the hole) I'm ecstatic and the "100" other shots I hit during that round are instantly forgotten about.

My mate who is maybe a shot better than me, hits fairway wood well past my drive...he expects to be on the green or at least very very close to it in 2.....his expectation is that he wants two putts for his par...or at worst a chip from within 10 yards of the green and a putt. He is a tad grumpy with a bogey, happy with a par and delighted with a birdie.

There are other holes where our perceptions are the same and further others where I perceive it to be easier than he does. You cant just lump everyone in the same boat.

I get what you’re saying but that element is not relevant here. Your point is about individual differences within the same handicap level. What I’m talking about is about realistic pars for your handicap. It’s making the game more relatable to your skill level. A standardised approach. No different to how it is now except it will offer a different perspective.

For ex, 2 18 handicappers on a par 4 might have different strengths and weaknesses. But understanding that your adjusted par is now 5 before you start might change each individuals strategy for that hole. Each strategy may still be unique.

 

[Depreston]

so the op wants to change the whole golf scoring landcape based on his experiences of playing non competitive single player golf

interesting

 

[jim8flog]

For ex, 2 18 handicappers on a par 4 might have different strengths and weaknesses. But understanding that your adjusted par is now 5 before you start might change each individuals strategy for that hole. Each strategy may still be unique.

I am pretty sure that most golfers who have played for years know what their strengths and weaknesses are and what to expect on a course they play regularly or have played several times in the past. If they go to new course they have no such information and can only go by the SI assuming it has been set for stableford and not match play or maybe a good GPS system so such an app would be pretty useless on that course and a waste of time on a course they know well.

Take me for example I already now that our 3rd hole (SI 2 par 4 ) is too long for me at my age to reach and it is just hit hit it as far as I can to leave the shortest pitch, the 14th (SI 1 par 4) is also too long for me to reach in 2 from the whites, it has cross bunkers that interfere with the second shot so I know to just lay up and hope for wedge and putt for 4 accepting a 5 where as off the yellows I can just about reach with my best second so it is a different strategy get as close to green as possible then pitch or chip. The same principle would apply to most of the guys I play with.

 

[inc0gnito]

so the op wants to change the whole golf scoring landcape based on his experiences of playing non competitive single player golf

interesting

Nope. You got it wrong. I only want to change the perspective. Nothing else changes.

 

[inc0gnito]

I am pretty sure that most golfers who have played for years know what their strengths and weaknesses are and what to expect on a course they play regularly or have played several times in the past. If they go to new course they have no such information and can only go by the SI assuming it has been set for stableford and not match play or maybe a good GPS system so such an app would be pretty useless on that course and a waste of time on a course they know well.

Take me for example I already now that our 3rd hole (SI 2 par 4 ) is too long for me at my age to reach and it is just hit hit it as far as I can to leave the shortest pitch, the 14th (SI 1 par 4) is also too long for me to reach in 2 from the whites, it has cross bunkers that interfere with the second shot so I know to just lay up and hope for wedge and putt for 4 accepting a 5 where as off the yellows I can just about reach with my best second so it is a different strategy get as close to green as possible then pitch or chip. The same principle would apply to most of the guys I play with.

Reading this and other responses makes it clear to me that (1) I haven’t explained things initially very well (2) maybe I came across too strong in my wording in the op and everyone thinks I’m trying to change the traditional game of golf, and (3) most people here have played a long time and know the game inside out and they’re own game well that a fluid scorecard system isn’t a [perceived] benefit to them. But that’s not to say it wouldn’t benefit many others, especially those new to the game, those with poor management, with poor expectations etc.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I am reminded of a story from many years ago. One guy qualified for the finals of a National Tournament away from his home course. He was getting really worried about it as it was a more difficult course. He had picked up a card for the course, then one of his mates took the card from him and changed all the pars on the card to something suiting his ability - stress gone.

I regularly play with a 28 handicap player who always moans about not getting pars I have told him on more than one occasion there are only 2 holes on the card where he should be thinking par.

I have had a serious a mental block with the second shot to our quite short but difficult par 4 10th. I have regularly racked up 7s and 8s on it , often blowing apart any chance of a solid back nine to follow a good front 9. As a strategy for getting over this block my pro has told me to try playing it as if it were a par 5. If that means doing such as deliberately playing a low risk shot short of the front green side bunkers then do that. Then take a chip on. Two putts is then OK - it’s not an 8, and one putt is great.

This is all about mental kidology but it’s kidology that‘s about changing my thinking from the totally negative and almost fear I have as I approach my second shot, to where I can approach it knowing that I can almost always get a 5 or better.

 

[nickjdavis]

I get what you’re saying but that element is not relevant here. Your point is about individual differences within the same handicap level. What I’m talking about is about realistic pars for your handicap. It’s making the game more relatable to your skill level. A standardised approach. No different to how it is now except it will offer a different perspective.

For ex, 2 18 handicappers on a par 4 might have different strengths and weaknesses. But understanding that your adjusted par is now 5 before you start might change each individuals strategy for that hole. Each strategy may still be unique.

And the point I was making is that what is a realistic par for me is not necessarily a realistic par for another player of the same handicap so a standardised approach does not work.

At my club a realistic score expectation on every hole for me is a par....except the 13th.....no other hole offers any boundaries that should prevent me from making par....I don't need a modified scorecard app to tell me that and I think that your assumption that players don't know their own abilities is quite wide of the mark and the thought that if they knew that really its a par 6 for them would adjust how they played it is simply wrong....all they would do is to try to birdie it against their new found "par for their ability"!

Perhaps what you really need is a score tracking app that creates a scorecard and tells you what your mean/median/modal score has been for each hole over say, the last 10 rounds....that might set expectations better.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

I have had a serious a mental block with the second shot to our quite short but difficult par 4 10th. I have regularly racked up 7s and 8s on it , often blowing apart any chance of a solid back nine to follow a good front 9. As a strategy for getting over this block my pro has told me to try playing it as if it were a par 5. If that means doing such as deliberately playing a low risk shot short of the front green side bunkers then do that. Then take a chip on. Two putts is then OK - it’s not an 8, and one putt is great.

This is all about mental kidology but it’s kidology that‘s about changing my thinking from the totally negative and almost fear I have as I approach my second shot, to where I can approach it knowing that I can almost always get a 5 or better.

Proving Dirty Harry to be right?,!" A good man knows his limitations "

Mind you H, all you've described is course management.
"Total negativity and almost fear" is somewhat strong for a golf shot?
Some days you might feel good and can do, others(mostly), you think it wise to lay up. E.g. doing well in a comp. don't want to blow up, so do the latter.

But you still know you've taken the easy option and are not good enough to most times get there in 2- but, so what?
Not a reason to delude yourself" that you've played to your par"

 

[Swinglowandslow]

My suggestion would do EXACTLY that. Let you accept YOUR level of play whilst trying to get better.

Most of us do that. Why do you think we don't?I do not need to delude myself by making any sort of change to scorecard system...

And for what it's worth, I consider myself driven by my conscious.?
"I think therefore I am..........making my decisions"
To paraphrase.

 

[Golfnut1957]

I have a mate who claims to have invented a perpetual motion engine. Ask him to explain the concept and I, without any degrees in anything can pull apart and identify his flawed thinking. His son has a Masters degree from Kings in Astrophysics. Throw him into the debate, and his dad will stand there with metaphorical fingers in his ears shouting na, na, na, refusing to listen to the reasoned responses.
He knows that the idea defies the laws of physics, he is just being obtuse.
Despite the flaws in your thinking having been repeatedly pointed out to you, you continue to repeat the same thinking over and over, because "we" don't understand your concept. I don't know if you are being obtuse or are struggling with the comprehension. Either way you appear to have your fingers in your ears, and you are shouting na, na, na repeatedly.