Scorecards should be fluid

[Swango1980]

So which of these tells you more about whether a player has played to handicap?

A. HI of 8.2 and differential of 9.1 today.
B. HI of 8.2 and 35 points today.

It is "B" where you need more information, as you say, regarding CR and SR.
"A" gives you all you should need to know.

So if I know a player's handicap, them telling me their differential tells me a lot more than if they tell me their stableford points.
We could talk far less about our stableford points when telling others about our score. This I believe would be a good thing. It was what most people did up to about 25 to 30 years ago.

I'm comparing gross score versus Stableford score. You are going straight to score differential. I never finish a round and know what my score differential is. I need the computer to work that out, or a calculator at best.

 

[Voyager EMH]

I'm comparing gross score versus Stableford score. You are going straight to score differential. I never finish a round and know what my score differential is. I need the computer to work that out, or a calculator at best.

From a score of level par up to nine over, I've committed the differentials at my course to memory. I didn't set out to do so, it just happened with usage.
Of course it is not until the next day that we know if PCC has altered these.

So if someone tells me they shot, say, 77 with no "blobs" then I can tell them their differential on the spot. I might sound a bit geeky, but I've been a bit of a numbers/arithmetic man for a long time. Telling me their stableford points, then I have to ask them their handicap and convert this to a gross score before I can tell them their differential.

This is why I have gone back to a preference of hearing someone's gross score rather than their stableford points.
This is my view.
Everyone is entitled to a different view, if they so choose.

 

[Swango1980]

From a score of level par up to nine over, I've committed the differentials at my course to memory. I didn't set out to do so, it just happened with usage.
Of course it is not until the next day that we know if PCC has altered these.

So if someone tells me they shot, say, 77 with no "blobs" then I can tell them their differential on the spot. I might sound a bit geeky, but I've been a bit of a numbers/arithmetic man for a long time. Telling me their stableford points, then I have to ask them their handicap and convert this to a gross score before I can tell them their differential.

This is why I have gone back to a preference of hearing someone's gross score rather than their stableford points.
This is my view.
Everyone is entitled to a different view, if they so choose.

That is the point though, you can't work out their score diff if they say they had a 77. You don't know if they had a 9 on their card for example. You also can't work out a score diff if they give their nett score.

At my course off yellows, for example, yellows CR is 1 under par. So, I know 37 points is playing to handicap. Not just for me, for anyone. If someone gets 37 points, I know they've played to handicap, I don't even need to know what their handicap is.

However, I can tell nothing from a gross score. I can not even really tell from a nett score. Also, if someone tells me they had a score diff of 15.2, that means nothing to me without their handicap, they could be a scratch player and an awful score, or a 30 handicapper and outstanding score. If i knew their Stableford points, then I'd know.

Don't get me wrong, I still look for my score diff on the MyEG App (obviously as this is what is used and displayed). But, from a simplistic way of knowing how well one had done, especially as many are used to Stabo, then a Stableford score is very handy to use. Otherwise, you need to look at all 18 scores, look for bad holes, determine how many shots the player gets and decide if final score needs to be reduced

 

[Voyager EMH]

That is the point though, you can't work out their score diff if they say they had a 77. You don't know if they had a 9 on their card for example. You also can't work out a score diff if they give their nett score.

At my course off yellows, for example, yellows CR is 1 under par. So, I know 37 points is playing to handicap. Not just for me, for anyone. If someone gets 37 points, I know they've played to handicap, I don't even need to know what their handicap is.

However, I can tell nothing from a gross score. I can not even really tell from a nett score. Also, if someone tells me they had a score diff of 15.2, that means nothing to me without their handicap, they could be a scratch player and an awful score, or a 30 handicapper and outstanding score. If i knew their Stableford points, then I'd know.

Don't get me wrong, I still look for my score diff on the MyEG App (obviously as this is what is used and displayed). But, from a simplistic way of knowing how well one had done, especially as many are used to Stabo, then a Stableford score is very handy to use. Otherwise, you need to look at all 18 scores, look for bad holes, determine how many shots the player gets and decide if final score needs to be reduced

I covered that with "77 with no blobs"

 

[Swango1980]

I covered that with "77 with no blobs"

What is a blob, unless you are thinking Stableford?

 

[Backsticks]

So, I know 37 points is playing to handicap. Not just for me, for anyone. If someone gets 37 points, I know they've played to handicap, I don't even need to know what their handicap is.

I dont think thats correct. If you have 37 points, you have played better than your handicap. For 37, you will be cut (unless there is a freak case where your current counting 8 scores all happen to be 37s, or, your 20th card being discarded happens to be on of your current 8 and is higher than 37).

 

[Swango1980]

I dont think thats correct. If you have 37 points, you have played better than your handicap. For 37, you will be cut (unless there is a freak case where your current counting 8 scores all happen to be 37s, or, your 20th card being discarded happens to be on of your current 8 and is higher than 37).

In my example from a previous post, the Course Rating is 1 under par. So, 37 points is playing to handicap. At other courses, it may be another points tally depending on CR.

 

[Backsticks]

In my example from a previous post, the Course Rating is 1 under par. So, 37 points is playing to handicap. At other courses, it may be another points tally depending on CR.

My point isnt that. Even if CR=Par and you shoot 36, your handicap will be cut, so it is more correct to consider that you beat your handicap than equalled it. Its much close than the UHS admittedly, and I think that a benefit of the WHS. In the UHS a 24hc equalled their HC with only about 32 points. WHS is closer, but you only equal your handicap if you shoot a score that becomes a counting card without changing your HI and thats likely to be lower than 36 (or 37 in your CR of 1 under example).

 

[Swango1980]

My point isnt that. Even if CR=Par and you shoot 36, your handicap will be cut, so it is more correct to consider that you beat your handicap than equalled it. Its much close than the UHS admittedly, and I think that a benefit of the WHS. In the UHS a 24hc equalled their HC with only about 32 points. WHS is closer, but you only equal your handicap if you shoot a score that becomes a counting card without changing your HI and thats likely to be lower than 36 (or 37 in your CR of 1 under example).

You are correct in the sense that playing to your handicap will often actually get you a cut, because it will be around the middle of your best 8, and replace your 8th best score. However, it is not entirely correct in that you may lose a better score from 21 rounds ago. You could shoot 40 points (where CR = Par) and you handicap could go UP. You wouldn't say that, because handicap went up, the player failed to play to handicap. It is simply how the system works.

So, comparing your score using CR has always been the way to judge if you played to handicap, just like comparing to SSS previously.

However, this has likely taken a tangent to the earlier posts this was based on.

 

[cliveb]

So which of these tells you more about whether a player has played to handicap?

A. HI of 8.2 and differential of 9.1 today.
B. HI of 8.2 and 35 points today.

It is "B" where you need more information, as you say, regarding CR and SR.
"A" gives you all you should need to know.

So if I know a player's handicap, them telling me their differential tells me a lot more than if they tell me their stableford points.

Ah, now I finally understand why we've been at odds. Of course differential says more than Stableford points. But how do you work out your differential? You need to know your ADJUSTED gross, and then deduct the CR (and PCC if you know it).

And your Stableford score immediately tells you what your adjusted gross is, whereas your actual gross might not.

Example:
One day I shoot a gross 85 and my differential is 15.
The next day I shoot 90 and my differential is also 15.
Confusing? Not when you note that both days I scored 34 Stableford points.
This is why I've been pointing out that Stableford is a better way to judge whether you've played to handicap.

Note that before WHS, the CONGU system actually called it a "Stableford adjustment".

 

[Voyager EMH]

Ah, now I finally understand why we've been at odds. Of course differential says more than Stableford points. But how do you work out your differential? You need to know your ADJUSTED gross, and then deduct the CR (and PCC if you know it).

And your Stableford score immediately tells you what your adjusted gross is, whereas your actual gross might not.

Example:
One day I shoot a gross 85 and my differential is 15.
The next day I shoot 90 and my differential is also 15.
Confusing? Not when you note that both days I scored 34 Stableford points.
This is why I've been pointing out that Stableford is a better way to judge whether you've played to handicap.

Note that before WHS, the CONGU system actually called it a "Stableford adjustment".

On here, we are all playing different courses. If you tell me you scored 34 points, it doesn't tell me much.

In an earlier post I showed how I played an away course, scored 29 points and achieved a differential of 5.6.
If I had played my home course off the yellows on that same day, 34 points would have given me a differential of 5.3.

The mention of the stableford points does not indicate how I played or scored in relation to my handicap, the differentials do.

In order to adapt to how WHS works, I kept an open mind and allowed my thinking to change.
I have demoted stableford from the position of King in my thinking.
I can take my gross score, adjust this to nett double bogey limit and calculate my differential without considering the concept of stableford. (As if it had never existed)

Stableford was not King before the last CONGU system. Gross and nett scores were.
Stableford was disliked back then by a majority for two reasons.
1. It is not "real golf".
2. The 7/8 allowance causes higher handicappers to lose a shot or shots.

I am fully aware of how the majority thinking is not with me.
Entertaining different views should be a mainstay of this forum.
I am not asking or forcing anyone to adopt my way of thinking. I have expressed my view.

 

[cliveb]

On here, we are all playing different courses. If you tell me you scored 34 points, it doesn't tell me much.

In an earlier post I showed how I played an away course, scored 29 points and achieved a differential of 5.6.
If I had played my home course off the yellows on that same day, 34 points would have given me a differential of 5.3.

The mention of the stableford points does not indicate how I played or scored in relation to my handicap, the differentials do.

I tend to mainly play my home course, but I don't think that's relevant.
We're fundamentally arguing when in fact we are in agreement.
We both know that to work out the differential, you need to calculate the adjusted gross.
You do it by converting blow up scores to net doubles, I do it by recording my Stableford points.
Both are valid ways of getting there - either way you need to know your course handicap and the par for each hole.

 

[Voyager EMH]

I tend to mainly play my home course, but I don't think that's relevant.
We're fundamentally arguing when in fact we are in agreement.
We both know that to work out the differential, you need to calculate the adjusted gross.
You do it by converting blow up scores to net doubles, I do it by recording my Stableford points.
Both are valid ways of getting there - either way you need to know your course handicap and the par for each hole.

So if I know your HI (even roughly have an idea) and you wish to tell me how you played or scored, will you be more inclined to tell me your stableford points or your differential?
Which is more relevant to getting that message across?
Be honest. I suspect strongly that stableford points still dominates your thinking. It is quite hard to change one's thinking. I have done so. I do not require you to do so.
If you tell me stableford points, then you would have to tell me Par, CR and SR and I still have to do a calculation myself. Differential does the job spot on.

One of my goals when I go out to play, is to beat my 8th best differential. I know what gross score I have to beat to do this. I keep a running total in my head of how many over par I am. If I have one dreadful score on a hole, I adjust this to nett double bogey and carry on. You could do the same by keeping a running total of stableford points in your head, even if you are in a medal. But that would have to be according to your CH when you score stableford points according to your PH if it is a stableford competition. In my thinking, I allow the stableford points to take care of themselves.
It might take some effort to change to my way of thinking. if anyone felt inclined to do so. But it is a purer form of golf with stableford affecting one's thinking to a much lesser degree.
Stableford is an optional distraction to my thinking now. The vast majority of competitions I play in are stablefords. I have no problem with this.

 

[Slab]

Reading the recent posts tells me how little I understand about the new handicap system when I had a fairly good grasp of the old one, clearly I need to educate myself

One thing (among plenty) I don’t follow is the need for a 3rd parties to gauge the performance or better understand/measure the score of another player to an extent that it would matter what metric was used ?
If I’m (3rd party) in the same comp (or rollup etc) as the Player then surely all I want is the stableford points (or total net strokes) whatever is the agreed scoring format
If I’m not playing in the comp it doesn’t really matter what number they give me, as a 3rd party it has no bearing to me
If its not a comp/rollup round and just a social round (even if its counting towards their handicap) it doesn’t matter what number they give me, its their handicap that'll change, not mine

 

[cliveb]

So if I know your HI (even roughly have an idea) and you wish to tell me how you played or scored, will you be more inclined to tell me your stableford points or your differential?
Which is more relevant to getting that message across?

The scorecard gives either a medal or Stableford score, not the differential.

Suppose you know the CR and my HCP index, would you be better able to judge my differential from my Stableford or overall gross score?

If you have my medal card in hand, to calculate the differential, you will first have to convert bad holes to net doubles. That's basically treating it like a Stableford, which is the only point I'm trying to make.

 

[Swango1980]

So if I know your HI (even roughly have an idea) and you wish to tell me how you played or scored, will you be more inclined to tell me your stableford points or your differential?
Which is more relevant to getting that message across?
Be honest. I suspect strongly that stableford points still dominates your thinking. It is quite hard to change one's thinking. I have done so. I do not require you to do so.
If you tell me stableford points, then you would have to tell me Par, CR and SR and I still have to do a calculation myself. Differential does the job spot on.

One of my goals when I go out to play, is to beat my 8th best differential. I know what gross score I have to beat to do this. I keep a running total in my head of how many over par I am. If I have one dreadful score on a hole, I adjust this to nett double bogey and carry on. You could do the same by keeping a running total of stableford points in your head, even if you are in a medal. But that would have to be according to your CH when you score stableford points according to your PH if it is a stableford competition. In my thinking, I allow the stableford points to take care of themselves.
It might take some effort to change to my way of thinking. if anyone felt inclined to do so. But it is a purer form of golf with stableford affecting one's thinking to a much lesser degree.
Stableford is an optional distraction to my thinking now. The vast majority of competitions I play in are stablefords. I have no problem with this.

I'm not sure you are grasping this discussion? You keep talking about score differential, which is effectively the very last piece of the calculation, from converting your score to something to be used in your handicap index calculation. No one is disagreeing with that.

But, to get your score differential one must first work out your gross differential. To get your gross differential, you need to know the individual hole scores, the stroke index of each hole, and then decide if any holes need to be rounded down, thus does the gross score need to be rounded down. You then use the gross differential, the Course Rating and the Slope to work out the Score Differential.

What Cliveb is saying is that, if you had the Stableford points, based on course handicap, then you do not need to know ANY of the individual hole scores. You do not need to know the stroke index of each hole. You know what the adjusted gross is simply based on the stableford score, CR and Par (CR and Par which also need to be known to work out Score Diff as I said). You can also determine how well you, or anyone else has played against their handicap simply by knowing this Stableford Score (if you were judging other players, you'd just need to remember their competition score is 95% course handicap).

So, there really doesn't seem to be a debate here, as any debate generated is not actually discussing the same thing. Cliveb is focused on the final adjusted gross / stableford score, Voyager is talking about Score Diff which comes along later in the calculation

 

[Voyager EMH]

How difficult it must be for the stableford thinkers to have to convert all their scores back to stableford in order to know what their 8th best score actually is.
Bit like all those folks who had to convert 37p back to shillings and pence before they knew how much they were paying. Took a lot of folks about 6 years to get used to that change.

Hey look! No stableford scores. How annoying! I'll just have to work them all out myself. Or maybe I won't.




My way of thinking does not have to be yours.
I understand the majority way of thinking, I don't need it explained to me, it was my way of thinking from about 1988 to this year.

 

[Swango1980]

How difficult it must be for the stableford thinkers to have to convert all their scores back to stableford in order to know what their 8th best score actually is.
Bit like all those folks who had to convert 37p back to shillings and pence before they knew how much they were paying. Took a lot of folks about 6 years to get used to that change.

Hey look! No stableford scores. How annoying! I'll just have to work them all out myself. Or maybe I won't.


View attachment 38459

My way of thinking does not have to be yours.
I understand the majority way of thinking, I don't need it explained to me, it was my way of thinking from about 1988 to this year.

NO ONE SAID IT DID. No one has criticised your way of thinking, in fact we have said there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. However, we are talking about different parts of the Index calculation, but the comments are simply not getting through to you.

One example, on a more widespread basis, where knowing the Stableford score saved me a massive amount of time was pre-WHS. As handicap secretary, and out of interest, I created a spreadsheet of around 40-50 members at the club, entered their scores from Jan 2018, to get an idea of what their Index would be. Stableford competitions were a piece of cake, just look for the Stableford Score and I immediately knew their Adjusted Gross and just plugged that into the spreadsheet. Medal comps were a nightmare. I had to open up every players individual hole scores, identify all the bad scores, work out how many shots they'd get on those holes, and adjust downwards if necessary. Then that number went into Excel. So, Stableford scores tells me a lot that I need to know much more quickly than gross / nett score.

THEN you can go on to work out Score Diff.

 

[Voyager EMH]

NO ONE SAID IT DID. No one has criticised your way of thinking, in fact we have said there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. However, we are talking about different parts of the Index calculation, but the comments are simply not getting through to you.

One example, on a more widespread basis, where knowing the Stableford score saved me a massive amount of time was pre-WHS. As handicap secretary, and out of interest, I created a spreadsheet of around 40-50 members at the club, entered their scores from Jan 2018, to get an idea of what their Index would be. Stableford competitions were a piece of cake, just look for the Stableford Score and I immediately knew their Adjusted Gross and just plugged that into the spreadsheet. Medal comps were a nightmare. I had to open up every players individual hole scores, identify all the bad scores, work out how many shots they'd get on those holes, and adjust downwards if necessary. Then that number went into Excel. So, Stableford scores tells me a lot that I need to know much more quickly than gross / nett score.

THEN you can go on to work out Score Diff.

All comments have got through to me.
Make your comments, they are good.
My comments, I believe are good too.

 

[Voyager EMH]

The scorecard gives either a medal or Stableford score, not the differential.

Suppose you know the CR and my HCP index, would you be better able to judge my differential from my Stableford or overall gross score?

If you have my medal card in hand, to calculate the differential, you will first have to convert bad holes to net doubles. That's basically treating it like a Stableford, which is the only point I'm trying to make.

I completely get this. Very good point well made. This is how a stableford-thinker thinks. I used to do exactly that.
To my view, now, this is cart before horse. The pure form of golf is 18 holes gross score. That is the basis of my thinking now.
So I am, "treating it like stableford" to your mind. I understand that.
But in my mind I am treating it like "real golf" (ref: a previous post) and thinking about stableford to a much lesser degree while playing my round. Knocking a 7 down to a 6 (if that applies) during my round is not treating it like stableford it is following the rule of adjusted gross score. In your mind that is "like stableford" in my mind stableford is like the adjusted gross score rule.
At any given time in my round, I am aware roughly what my stableford points tally is. Most of the time I am playing in stableford competitions. I get only 3 shots so it is easy for that to be in my head. But my thoughts are not focussed on my stableford points, because it does not help me focus on returning a good score. I am usually focussed on beating my 8th best score and I keep a tally in my head of how many over par I am while pursuing that goal.
I do not convert my 8th best score back to stableford and keep a tally of my stableford points to achieve my goal. I would do exactly that, however, if I were still a stableford-thinker.

I think about my golf score not my stableford score, mostly.

This is, and has been, a very interesting discussion. Thanks to all for taking part.