Scorecards should be fluid

[Griffsters]

I get what you are saying. I think learning this stuff and managing the course and your score is all part of the journey of becoming a better golfer.

Every person is different and needs to find their way of doing so, there is no one way of thinking your way around a course just as there is no one swing. Its about what works for you, both physically and mentally - your way of doing it is an option

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Crikey. Too much thinking.

Surely just think, "I get two shots here!"

…indeed - or when playing any hole the player just ignores the number on card and plays every hole as if it were a par 5 (18 over for a CR of 72) or if a higher handicapper play each as a par 6 (36 over). In the end his score is still assessed against CR, but that is after - whilst playing he keeps his running scores against 5s or 6s.

This is what I often did when first playing the game as I could regularly get the buzz of getting a ‘par’ or ‘birdie’ the OP talks of. Playing to 6s, getting a 4 (on any hole) was an ‘eagle’ - great! whilst a 7 was just one shot dropped, an 8 just two etc. Kept me feeling good and positive - and when I might find myself say ‘5 under’ I felt like a pro. ?

 

[inc0gnito]

Really?
Pretty much everyone I play with in a Stableford says eg. "5 for 2".
So that's a stroke score (5) and an indication of whether they've played to their personal par.

As I was reading your initial post I was thinking that Stableford achieves *precisely* what you want. Most golfers I know measure their performance in terms of Stableford points. For sure, maybe scratch players think differently, but I don't move in their circles.

Maybe then. I’m not too familiar with stableford as I mostly just play on my own (though I haven’t played in a long time!). I guess I just don’t hear many people, especially beginners, talk about that when they talk about their course, their scores, and each hole and so on.

 

[inc0gnito]

Have you built this app yet? If not when will we see it?
How much will you charge to download it?
How many subscribers do you expect to get?

Genuine question.

No, and I’ve no plans to because I don’t know how! And I think it would be super easy to add into any existing golf scoring app. So I wouldn’t think trying to produce a stand alone app would work very well. The competition would copy the idea by the end of the week!

 

[Orikoru]

But that’s my point. That’s done afterward. Instead of going through the round with bogey, double bogey, par, triple bogey, etc, your card for a higher handicapper might say par, bogey, double bogey, etc. Before you tee off each hole you know what is needed for your level so your less likely to feel frustrated during the hole which then effects how you play the hole itself.

Visually seeing what you need for a hole before you tee off has a very different effect before it and during it than working out a net score at the end of it.

That's already the case if you have even a modicum of knowledge. I know which holes I get a shot on, so I know what my net par is for the hole before I've teed off. But I aspire to do better than that anyway.

It's down to the individual's perception rather than trying to force it through a weird floating par system you've devised. My 28 handicapper mate is often happy to make a double bogey if it gets him 2 Stableford points. Someone else I've played with was an 18 handicapper but gets a 6 on a par 5 and was says it's "terrible" - when it's not. You're responsible for your own mindset on the course at the end of the day.

I kind of see par as a distance thing rather than an ability thing anyway. Par 3 to me just says here is a hole where the average player would be able to reach the green in one shot. A par 4, the average person would be able to reach or near enough reach the green in two shots. I make my own mind up whether I'm happy with bogey or not.

 

[Orikoru]

Really?
Pretty much everyone I play with in a Stableford says eg. "5 for 2".
So that's a stroke score (5) and an indication of whether they've played to their personal par.

As I was reading your initial post I was thinking that Stableford achieves *precisely* what you want. Most golfers I know measure their performance in terms of Stableford points. For sure, maybe scratch players think differently, but I don't move in their circles.

Agreed. I play with people of different handicaps and we always tot up the Stableford scores for our friendly rounds to see who played their best against "their par", to use the OP's vernacular. People generally know what they need to do to achieve 2 points on the hole, so it amounts to the same.

 

[inc0gnito]

I'm still failing to see why you need an app for something a chimp could work out in its head in under a second.

Then you’re missing the main point of having a fluid scorecard which I’ve explained throughout the thread.

The point is people most often don’t think like that. What happens with most is they rock up to a par 3, say a 15 handicap, hit a bogey and get annoyed at themselves. They say well actually I get a shot on that hole so it was a par. Probably still feel bad about it because internally they still judging their gross score as their true score based on scratch par.

If you had your digital scorecard in front of you, now that’s your focus and you think internally “as a 15 handicapper to meet my handicap I have to get the ball in the hole in four shots”. Now the perception is different. My goal is to meet or beat MY OWN level of par. So when you hit 4, there is a different feeling. It no longer feels like a loss or not good enough. You’ve met your goal based on what was expected of you at that time.

because you can work out, roughly, what score might be expected of your handicap on a hole, it doesn’t mean that people (1) do it, (2) do it correctly, (3) do it before the round/hole, (4) or that it affects their approach of the hole, (5) or that it affects their perceived self-performance during/after the hole.

Knowing exactly what your true goal is before a round/hole would influence all of these things in my opinion.

 

[Neilds]

Then you’re missing the main point of having a fluid scorecard which I’ve explained throughout the thread.

The point is people most often don’t think like that. What happens with most is they rock up to a par 3, say a 15 handicap, hit a bogey and get annoyed at themselves. They say well actually I get a shot on that hole so it was a par. Probably still feel bad about it because internally they still judging their gross score as their true score based on scratch par.

If you had your digital scorecard in front of you, now that’s your focus and you think internally “as a 15 handicapper to meet my handicap I have to get the ball in the hole in four shots”. Now the perception is different. My goal is to meet or beat MY OWN level of par. So when you hit 4, there is a different feeling. It no longer feels like a loss or not good enough. You’ve met your goal based on what was expected of you at that time.

because you can work out, roughly, what score might be expected of your handicap on a hole, it doesn’t mean that people (1) do it, (2) do it correctly, (3) do it before the round/hole, (4) or that it affects their approach of the hole, (5) or that it affects their perceived self-performance during/after the hole.

Knowing exactly what your true goal is before a round/hole would influence all of these things in my opinion.

I totally agree with what you are saying about peoples mindset and how they should approach individual holes according to their own handicap but this is a personal thing and don't see how having an app will help. Some people never listen on a course anyway so having something in front of them will make no difference - they think they should birdie every hole! Maybe if people spent more time thinking about how many shots they get on each hole, it will stop them trying the hero shots over the water or through the trees - and I am one of those

 

[doublebogey7]

Then you’re missing the main point of having a fluid scorecard which I’ve explained throughout the thread.

The point is people most often don’t think like that. What happens with most is they rock up to a par 3, say a 15 handicap, hit a bogey and get annoyed at themselves. They say well actually I get a shot on that hole so it was a par. Probably still feel bad about it because internally they still judging their gross score as their true score based on scratch par.

If you had your digital scorecard in front of you, now that’s your focus and you think internally “as a 15 handicapper to meet my handicap I have to get the ball in the hole in four shots”. Now the perception is different. My goal is to meet or beat MY OWN level of par. So when you hit 4, there is a different feeling. It no longer feels like a loss or not good enough. You’ve met your goal based on what was expected of you at that time.

because you can work out, roughly, what score might be expected of your handicap on a hole, it doesn’t mean that people (1) do it, (2) do it correctly, (3) do it before the round/hole, (4) or that it affects their approach of the hole, (5) or that it affects their perceived self-performance during/after the hole.

Knowing exactly what your true goal is before a round/hole would influence all of these things in my opinion.

Sorry, but earlier you stated you mainly play on your own, so how the heck can you even suggest how most players think. In my experience most play with stableford in mind and therefore a 18 handicapper will be content with a boggy.

 

[inc0gnito]

That's already the case if you have even a modicum of knowledge. I know which holes I get a shot on, so I know what my net par is for the hole before I've teed off. But I aspire to do better than that anyway.

It's down to the individual's perception rather than trying to force it through a weird floating par system you've devised. My 28 handicapper mate is often happy to make a double bogey if it gets him 2 Stableford points. Someone else I've played with was an 18 handicapper but gets a 6 on a par 5 and was says it's "terrible" - when it's not. You're responsible for your own mindset on the course at the end of the day.

I kind of see par as a distance thing rather than an ability thing anyway. Par 3 to me just says here is a hole where the average player would be able to reach the green in one shot. A par 4, the average person would be able to reach or near enough reach the green in two shots. I make my own mind up whether I'm happy with bogey or not.

That’s fine if you’re comfortable with that and have that knowledge. I’d bet most people in the first couple of years of playing don’t though, and will constantly judge themselves off scratch par. Your mindset on par distance is a psychological strategy you’ve put in place. Others won’t do the same.

What I’m suggesting here isn’t changing the system. It’s changing how a scorecard looks. Something easily adaptable to existing apps. It’s just a way to reign expectations particularly for people who get frustrated, are new to the game, have been around a long time but still have bad internal or course management, or who don’t apply effective strategies like you’ve applied to how you see your game.

A fluid system can work alongside the existing system. You can flip between the two. Won’t make any difference. I just see this way as having so many more benefits.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

SILH says. "and when I might find myself say ‘5 under’ I felt like a pro. ?"


.........yet knowing in reality I was pretty mediocre!
Honestly, what is the point of all this delusion?
So we are not scratch golfers. So what? Why try to make yourself think you are?
Just accept your level of play whilst trying to get better. The par of the holes gives you an objective, so just try your best.
What's all this kidology crap?

 

[inc0gnito]

I totally agree with what you are saying about peoples mindset and how they should approach individual holes according to their own handicap but this is a personal thing and don't see how having an app will help. Some people never listen on a course anyway so having something in front of them will make no difference - they think they should birdie every hole! Maybe if people spent more time thinking about how many shots they get on each hole, it will stop them trying the hero shots over the water or through the trees - and I am one of those

Yeah I get that. But I do think it would make a positive difference regardless. Psychologists, psychiatrists, therapists, hypnotists, NLP practitioners etc have known about the power of reframing for eons. We are largely driven by our subconscious, and I honestly think that the method I suggest would work at the subconscious level.

 

[inc0gnito]

Sorry, but earlier you stated you mainly play on your own, so how the heck can you even suggest how most players think. In my experience most play with stableford in mind and therefore a 18 handicapper will be content with a boggy.

Based on my own experience, playing with others, watching others on the course, talking with others, reading forums, videos etc.

 

[cliveb]

The point is people most often don’t think like that. What happens with most is they rock up to a par 3, say a 15 handicap, hit a bogey and get annoyed at themselves.

You've already stated that you mostly play on your own, so you need to appreciate that perhaps you might not know how most golfers think.

As someone who has played with loads of others, I can tell you that most golfers I know DO think like that.

As it happens, I'm a 15 capper, and there are three par 3s on my course where I'm perfectly happy to score 4.

On most holes, I am delighted to get a par.

Knowing exactly what your true goal is before a round/hole would influence all of these things in my opinion.

Most of us do know that, and we don't need an app to tell us.

 

[inc0gnito]

SILH says. "and when I might find myself say ‘5 under’ I felt like a pro. ?"


.........yet knowing in reality I was pretty mediocre!
Honestly, what is the point of all this delusion?
So we are not scratch golfers. So what? Why try to make yourself think you are?
Just accept your level of play whilst trying to get better. The par of the holes gives you an objective, so just try your best.
What's all this kidology crap?

My suggestion would do EXACTLY that. Let you accept YOUR level of play whilst trying to get better.

 

[inc0gnito]

You've already stated that you mostly play on your own, so you need to appreciate that perhaps you might not know how most golfers think.

As someone who has played with loads of others, I can tell you that most golfers I know DO think like that.

As it happens, I'm a 15 capper, and there are three par 3s on my course where I'm perfectly happy to score 4.

On most holes, I am delighted to get a par.

Most of us do know that, and we don't need an app to tell us.

I agree that I don’t know what all golfers think. I’m only basing my opinion on what I have seen and heard over the years.

You and your friends are the ones that stuck with golf. So I’m actual fact your circle has an inherent bias. what about the larger percentage of people who don’t stick with it and quit cuz it’s too hard? I’d dare say not knowing what’s expected of their level has something to do with that.

 

[IanM]

My suggestion would do EXACTLY that. Let you accept YOUR level of play whilst trying to get better.

...If your brain won't do that with all the information currently available, why would reading it on an App make a difference?

...and the Rules-Boffins will along shortly to argue that under WHS, par isn't par, 36 points doesn't mean anything, bogey isn't bogey, are you using HI,CH or PH, are you off the right tees etc etc etc etc?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

SILH says. "and when I might find myself say ‘5 under’ I felt like a pro. ?"


.........yet knowing in reality I was pretty mediocre!
Honestly, what is the point of all this delusion?
So we are not scratch golfers. So what? Why try to make yourself think you are?
Just accept your level of play whilst trying to get better. The par of the holes gives you an objective, so just try your best.
What's all this kidology crap?

Well with that thinking you could say that stating and stressing the nett score for a round is a bit of kidology - and with that I agree. However as a learner (in early teens) I often played to 6s during a round as it made me feel better when things were not going so good, and great when I did well on a hole - my final total was still just that. In many aspects when actually playing the mental side of golf requires some degree of personal ‘kidology’, to keep us feeling positive (and so enjoying our round as best we can ?)

 

[Swango1980]

I think others that have replied have the same opinion as me, I do not agree with this post at all. I've played with plenty of high handicappers who get 2 shots on holes. If they bogey one of those holes, they are often delighted after completing the hole. I never sense they feel they've dropped a shot. Instead, they are delighted they got a nett birdie (especially in Stableford when they get a juice 3 points)

I'm a single figure handicapper, but I'm not devastated if I bogey a hole I get a shot on. Maybe sometimes there could be a slight disappointment. But, much in the same way a scratch player or pro is disappointed they do not birdie a birdiable hole.

By changing the pars on every hole for different players, you're just overly complicating issues. Physical scorecards would be meaningless, and only the tech could do it. But, the tech just as easily can knock a shot or 2 of your gross score when you input it. The MyEG App tallies up the points of each player after each hole, And, realistically, how many golfers do not understand the concept of Stroke Indexes and understanding where they get shots? Not many, and for those that do not understand, you are adding a whole world of pain when you start changing pars on them. What do they do when they go out for another round, and some of the pars change because their handicap changed?

I think you are looking for a solution to a problem that does not exist. I've never heard golfers voice their stress or concern on this issue.

 

[Highslice]

As a mid to high handicapper I’m aiming for bogey on most holes.
but there’s still a difference between a good bogey and bad bogey that will affect my satisfaction of a hole. An app isn’t going to help with that.

A 5 when I’m on the green in 3 shots without any disasters, then 2 solid putts? I’ll take that all round long.

Same hole, but I’ve nailed the drive 270, pitched to 20ft then 3 putted? Bummer.