Roll Up Group Handicaps

[D-S]

Here's a follow-up question. Rule 21 is titled "Other Forms of Individual Stroke Play and Match Play". It covers Stableford and Maximum Score as forms of Individual Stroke Play. Neither of those require the hole to be completed, ie, ball picked up when net double bogey (zerpo points) or maximum score are reached. Are those forms of play acceptable for handicapping?

Yup, provided the Maximum score is equivalent to or greater than net double bogey.

 

[Crow]

I'm with Arthur, it's dictatorial nonsense.

I don't want to cheat people by inflating my handicap in social games where I don't give a stuff about the result and don't give the round my full respect, or even play by the rules.

If my club try and push it, which I honestly can't see happening, then I'll just stick an illegal club in the bag for every social round.

I've coming to see this as one of the biggest differentiators between WHS and the old CONGU system. CONGU was your handicap under competition conditions, WHS is your handicap when you're just mucking around.

 

[AussieKB]

Why is this not pushed in OZ if it is a World system ?
Plenty of social roll ups played and never entered a card, nor seen one entered from anyone in the roll up.

I do put 150 cards a year in from Official Competitions though.

 

[Swango1980]

I'm with Arthur, it's dictatorial nonsense.

I don't want to cheat people by inflating my handicap in social games where I don't give a stuff about the result and don't give the round my full respect, or even play by the rules.

If my club try and push it, which I honestly can't see happening, then I'll just stick an illegal club in the bag for every social round.

I've coming to see this as one of the biggest differentiators between WHS and the old CONGU system. CONGU was your handicap under competition conditions, WHS is your handicap when you're just mucking around.

You don't have to put on a scorecard if you are playing socially or not playing by the rules. In fact, the round is absolutely not acceptable for handicap if you are not playing by the rules.

So, no need to go to extreme lengths by throwing an illegal club in your bag. Why break another rule of golf to make it unacceptable, when you are already breaking other rules anyway?

 

[Backache]

Obtuse as ever. The club see it as an organised group as per WHS rules and as such the group should be putting in GP cards. It isn't hard to understand or even comply with. Why are you so scared to put cards in? Vanity handicap?

There are plenty of clubs where the clubs effectively have no negotiating power over members in this kind of matter, if the members are fed up and walk the club folds.
There are plenty of clubs where roll up formats are not suitable for handicap purposes I cannot for the life of me see why uniformity of social golf should be inflicted on those who do not wish it.
It's a deeply authoritarian obnoxious diktat.

 

[rulefan]

There are plenty of clubs where the clubs effectively have no negotiating power over members in this kind of matter, if the members are fed up and walk the club folds.
There are plenty of clubs where roll up formats are not suitable for handicap purposes I cannot for the life of me see why uniformity of social golf should be inflicted on those who do not wish it.
It's a deeply authoritarian obnoxious diktat.

If you don't want to conform to the Rules of Handicapping why have a handicap? It is not compulsory.

 

[Slab]

Can I have two opinions?

• I think it’d be good for many more roll-up groups to be mandated to enter the scores for handicap : It’d put a big blow to the guys who clean up in these social comps with no impact re official handicap reduction. Comments on here indicate many players are then carrying an unrepresentative handicap into a formal comp setting

• I think it’d be silly to force roll-up groups to enter the scores for handicap : It’d take the edge off the fun/social aspect from those just there to whack a ball round a field with their mates and have a laugh trying hero shots etc without risking damage to the handicap they’ve spent many many hours of practice and play under all conditions, to get it as low as they can


I’d like to think most readers would see the validity in both the above points of view regardless of which side of the discussion you’re on… but what’s the common ground (solution)?

 

[Backache]

If you don't want to conform to the Rules of Handicapping why have a handicap? It is not compulsory.

It is quite possible to wish to have a handicap but not play all your leisure golf according to it.
For the vast majority of golfing history that was how it was played.
I prefer to play our roll ups timeously which is not in accordance with this rule.

 

[3 jabber]

If my club starts forcing us to submit cards in rollups I will stop playing in them.

 

[wjemather]

There are plenty of clubs where the clubs effectively have no negotiating power over members in this kind of matter, if the members are fed up and walk the club folds.
There are plenty of clubs where roll up formats are not suitable for handicap purposes I cannot for the life of me see why uniformity of social golf should be inflicted on those who do not wish it.
It's a deeply authoritarian obnoxious diktat.

Where are you getting this from? It's never been suggested by anyone.

 

[D-S]

There are plenty of clubs where the clubs effectively have no negotiating power over members in this kind of matter, if the members are fed up and walk the club folds.
There are plenty of clubs where roll up formats are not suitable for handicap purposes I cannot for the life of me see why uniformity of social golf should be inflicted on those who do not wish it.
It's a deeply authoritarian obnoxious diktat.

Which is perfectly fine and players from these sort of roll ups should not put cards in.

 

[Backache]

Where are you getting this from? It's never been suggested by anyone.

Roll ups are in my club a social form of golf which allows people to meet fellow club members in a friendly environment where stakes are very low indeed and entirely voluntary, putts are readily conceded, and if a ball cannot be found a couple of strokes added.
If someone doesn't have a a handicap one is allocated.
As far as I can see much of this cannot longer be done under some regimes.

 

[wjemather]

Clearly, some people have not understood what is required by the rules & guidance.

All individual stroke play competition scores (meeting the requirements for an acceptable score) must be submitted. The definition of "competition" includes informal ones (often run as rollups, swindles, fuddles, etc.). There has never been a suggestion of mandating formats or compliance with the requirements for an acceptable score.

However, questions should absolutely be asked if anyone is intentionally circumventing the rules in order to avoid submitting scores for handicapping.

 

[Hobbit]

If scores with gimmies included can’t be submitted then surely just have a swindle rule of anything within the grip is given. Added benefit of speeding up play.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Can I have two opinions?

• I think it’d be good for many more roll-up groups to be mandated to enter the scores for handicap : It’d put a big blow to the guys who clean up in these social comps with no impact re official handicap reduction. Comments on here indicate many players are then carrying an unrepresentative handicap into a formal comp setting

• I think it’d be silly to force roll-up groups to enter the scores for handicap : It’d take the edge off the fun/social aspect from those just there to whack a ball round a field with their mates and have a laugh trying hero shots etc without risking damage to the handicap they’ve spent many many hours of practice and play under all conditions, to get it as low as they can


I’d like to think most readers would see the validity in both the above points of view regardless of which side of the discussion you’re on… but what’s the common ground (solution)?

A lot of what’s happened is down to EG and their lack of understanding of the mentality of their golfers

When WHS came in this was this feeling that whenever we played a card would go in and people would have a better reflective handicap. They brought out their own App , ignored the ISVs and clubs

What they created what an easy method for everyone to manipulate their handicap up - with have seen over the last two years opens being won by people who have managed to manufacture their handicap

When people join a golf club it’s 99% a pastime for them , somewhere to enjoy a sport in a social setting

There is also the ability to play in comps if they want something a bit more serious

Most clubs have their own members organise groups of mates playing together in various formats - all those will be social golf. If a club starts to dictate what those social groups do - dictate that they must putt out and play to full rules of golf then the clubs will get a shock - people will just stick two fingers up and walk out

Said at the start it shows a complete lack of understanding of the general reason most play the game

If someone wants to put their card in during social golf they can , and many do

There will always be the over zealous rulies and those that just regurgitate the rules - it’s a game built on trust not dictatorship

 

[Arthur Wedge]

If scores with gimmies included can’t be submitted then surely just have a swindle rule of anything within the grip is given. Added benefit of speeding up play.

Ah but that is according to those rule barons

“Circumventing the rules”

But it is exactly what we do

 

[wjemather]

Roll ups are in my club a social form of golf which allows people to meet fellow club members in a friendly environment where stakes are very low indeed and entirely voluntary, putts are readily conceded, and if a ball cannot be found a couple of strokes added.
If someone doesn't have a a handicap one is allocated.
As far as I can see much of this cannot longer be done under some regimes.

Scores from such rounds are not acceptable for handicapping.

No-one is seeking to change how you play golf.

The requirement to submit scores only applies if your informal competition meets the requirements for an acceptable score. Clearly, yours does not And there is no requirement for your informal competition to change in order to meet those requirements.

 

[Deleted member 36742]

I haven't submitted a card for about four years, when I stopped playing in Club comps.

However,I may occasionally play in a roll up not organized by the Club and play off my last known handicap.

I am damned if I am going to start faffing about submitting cards just to satisfy WHS which , as far as I recall, was presented as a fait accompli rather than an option to consider.

 

[3 jabber]

Clearly, some people have not understood what is required by the rules & guidance.

All individual stroke play competition scores (meeting the requirements for an acceptable score) must be submitted. The definition of "competition" includes informal ones (often run as rollups, swindles, fuddles, etc.). There has never been a suggestion of mandating formats or compliance with the requirements for an acceptable score.

However, questions should absolutely be asked if anyone is intentionally circumventing the .rules in order to avoid submitting scores for handicapping.

Clearly you do not understand the concept of fun golf

 

[Slab]

A lot of what’s happened is down to EG and their lack of understanding of the mentality of their golfers

When WHS came in this was this feeling that whenever we played a card would go in and people would have a better reflective handicap. They brought out their own App , ignored the ISVs and clubs

What they created what an easy method for everyone to manipulate their handicap up - with have seen over the last two years opens being won by people who have managed to manufacture their handicap

When people join a golf club it’s 99% a pastime for them , somewhere to enjoy a sport in a social setting

There is also the ability to play in comps if they want something a bit more serious

Most clubs have their own members organise groups of mates playing together in various formats - all those will be social golf. If a club starts to dictate what those social groups do - dictate that they must putt out and play to full rules of golf then the clubs will get a shock - people will just stick two fingers up and walk out

Said at the start it shows a complete lack of understanding of the general reason most play the game

If someone wants to put their card in during social golf they can , and many do

There will always be the over zealous rulies and those that just regurgitate the rules - it’s a game built on trust not dictatorship

I agree.

The WHS/EG primary aim is laudable though and the issue is finding the solution that caters for all clubs/comps/players, when making use of an official handicap

As I said above, I don’t want anyone to have to put a card in just because they putted out etc but... neither do I want to play in a comp with that same fella with a roll-up handicap that’s say 4+ shots lower than his WHS handicap

Ideally we should be discussing alternative options not just the 'you gotta do it cos... / nah I'm not doing it cos...' viewpoints