Post Office - Horizon scandal

[Ross61]

Following privatisation the sub-post offices were managed/‘owned’ as franchises..and my understanding is that many other franchises and their franchisees operate under similar constraints and demands.

i Don’t Understand your post.

im talking about crown offices and the franchises of those were debated in 2019 long after the convictions of sub-postmasters

Number CDP-0285, 3 January 2019
Franchising of Crown post
offices and effect on high
streets and local
communities
By Lorna Booth and
Olivia Phelan
Summary
A debate on franchising of Crown post offices and effect on high streets and
local communities will take place in Westminster Hall on Thursday 10 January
2019 at 1:30pm. The debate is sponsored by Lisa Nandy MP.
Crown post offices account for about 2% of post offices. Crown post offices
are large post offices that are directly managed by Post Office Ltd and
franchising them would see them be moved to being managed by partners such
as WH Smith.
The Communication Workers Union, who oppose the changes, have pointed to
effects on jobs and service levels.
Research by Citizens Advice suggests that some aspects of the service in former
Crown post offices are a bit better than that in current Crown post offices,
some aspects of the service are a bit worse and many aspects are similar.

 

[Red devil]

Infosys and Fujitsu announced a new partnership in October 2023.

Infosys owned by Rishi Sunak's father in law.

 

[chellie]

I’d say something but, gnng, politics!

That's why I've not said more.

 

[chellie]

Link to new BBC article https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67884743

 

[Tashyboy]

Link to new BBC article https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67884743

Just read that, and the post office continued to lie even though they had been found out. Disgusting.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

i Don’t Understand your post.

im talking about crown offices and the franchises of those were debated in 2019 long after the convictions of sub-postmasters

Number CDP-0285, 3 January 2019
Franchising of Crown post
offices and effect on high
streets and local
communities
By Lorna Booth and
Olivia Phelan
Summary
A debate on franchising of Crown post offices and effect on high streets and
local communities will take place in Westminster Hall on Thursday 10 January
2019 at 1:30pm. The debate is sponsored by Lisa Nandy MP.
Crown post offices account for about 2% of post offices. Crown post offices
are large post offices that are directly managed by Post Office Ltd and
franchising them would see them be moved to being managed by partners such
as WH Smith.
The Communication Workers Union, who oppose the changes, have pointed to
effects on jobs and service levels.
Research by Citizens Advice suggests that some aspects of the service in former
Crown post offices are a bit better than that in current Crown post offices,
some aspects of the service are a bit worse and many aspects are similar.

Was thinking that as franchisees the subbies wouldn‘t be employees of Post Office Ltd and so not afforded the same contracts and protections as those that are.

 

[Hobbit]

As each new revelation comes out, the level of corruption is just staggering. It’s unbelievably cruel the depths that some people have plumbed in their actions towards the subbies.

I really do hope that the severest of penalties are coming their way. A message needs to go out that corruption will be met with the harshest of sentences.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Listening to the story of a woman from Uinst.
With her husband they owned a combined village B&B shop and PO.
They lost the lot
Her husband died shortly after, she said it completely broke him as he knew he had not made any errors and that Horizon was at fault.

Where do you even start with compensation in a case like this.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Listening to the story of a woman from Uinst.
With her husband they owned a combined village B&B shop and PO.
They lost the lot
Her husband died shortly after, she said it completely broke him as he knew he had not made any errors and that Horizon was at fault.

Where do you even start with compensation in a case like this.

They are starting at £600,000

In this case they will be negotiating upwards considerably.
They would be very silly to settle for less than £2 million.

Paula Vennells got something in the region of £3 million in bonuses.
She stole the truth.
False accounting of the truth.
She ought to plead guilty. Thou shall not bear false witness...
3 years, but maybe a reduction for an early guilty plea.
A judge should ignore self-serving remorse.

I'm dreaming, though.

 

[pendodave]

As each new revelation comes out, the level of corruption is just staggering. It’s unbelievably cruel the depths that some people have plumbed in their actions towards the subbies.

I really do hope that the severest of penalties are coming their way. A message needs to go out that corruption will be met with the harshest of sentences.

Come on.
The penalties will likely be the same as those meted out to those responsible for the banking crisis and the embezzlement of the British taxpayers during the covid feeding frenzy. Not many rich people in British jails.
But don't steal any bottles of water...

 

[cliveb]

On another tack, I want to address the remote access capability and the suggestion that it was something that should not have existed. As a (retired) database designer and application developer, the idea that any system of this scale would not have a mechanism for the back office to access and audit the database is just laughable.

It seems to me that there is some unwritten assumption that the remote access capability is the cause of the accounting discrepencies. That is certainly the way it's being presented. Almost as if had there not been any remote access, there would have been no problems. Which implies that people at Fujitsu were using it to maliciously corrupt the data. This is a ridiculous suggestion. Everything points towards the discrepencies resulting from fundamental bugs in the system, and the remote access was being used by Fujitsu as a means of fire fighting the errors, attempting to correct them on the quiet.

What's really worrying is that had there really been no remote access, it seems the subpostmasters wouldn't have had a case, even though the bugs in the system were still there.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

A woman on the radio yesterday was talking and mentioned the compensation level. As one of the earlier claimants, with all of her own money gone, she went with a no win no fee lawyer. That firm has taken all of her winnings so financially she is in the same boat as when she started, broke! Apparently the govt stated that claimants fees will be covered but that has not happened so far. Another level of complexity to add to what these people have already been through.

 

[D-S]

They are starting at £600,000

In this case they will be negotiating upwards considerably.
They would be very silly to settle for less than £2 million.

Paula Vennells got something in the region of £3 million in bonuses.
She stole the truth.
False accounting of the truth.
She ought to plead guilty. Thou shall not bear false witness...
3 years, but maybe a reduction for an early guilty plea.
A judge should ignore self-serving remorse.

I'm dreaming, though.

It is strange that you can be rewarded financially extremely well for presiding over a business that wrought such havoc among a section of honest hard working people yet there appears to be no risk for this reward - just the same as the banking crisis. A main justification for such high rewards at the upper end of corporations is the extreme responsibilities these ‘exceptional’ people bear. However when push comes to shove suddenly they bear no responsibility, no risk for their reward.
I can’t think of a correct term for my emotion concerning this problem, anger, sadness just doesn’t describe it.

 

[chellie]

Checkout Dan Neidle on twitter. One post master has received £15.75 as compensation!!!!!

 

[chellie]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1745920610893434993

 

[Hobbit]

Just how many victims are there?

The monster keeps growing and growing. 2 weeks ago, reporting led us to believe it was over 500. Then it was over 700, and now it 983 wrongful convictions. But it doesn’t stop there. Including those that paid back supposed thefts but weren’t prosecuted there are over 4,000 claimants.

How on earth can there be over 4,000 subPostMasters with similar accounting issues and the Post Office not recognise it’s a system failure?

 

[Billysboots]

Just how many victims are there?

The monster keeps growing and growing. 2 weeks ago, reporting led us to believe it was over 500. Then it was over 700, and now it 983 wrongful convictions. But it doesn’t stop there. Including those that paid back supposed thefts but weren’t prosecuted there are over 4,000 claimants.

How on earth can there be over 4,000 subPostMasters with similar accounting issues and the Post Office not recognise it’s a system failure?

And keep telling them all they were the only one with an issue.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

On another tack, I want to address the remote access capability and the suggestion that it was something that should not have existed. As a (retired) database designer and application developer, the idea that any system of this scale would not have a mechanism for the back office to access and audit the database is just laughable.

It seems to me that there is some unwritten assumption that the remote access capability is the cause of the accounting discrepencies. That is certainly the way it's being presented. Almost as if had there not been any remote access, there would have been no problems. Which implies that people at Fujitsu were using it to maliciously corrupt the data. This is a ridiculous suggestion. Everything points towards the discrepencies resulting from fundamental bugs in the system, and the remote access was being used by Fujitsu as a means of fire fighting the errors, attempting to correct them on the quiet.

What's really worrying is that had there really been no remote access, it seems the subpostmasters wouldn't have had a case, even though the bugs in the system were still there.

…or with full knowledge of a POL management who knew they may have required Fujitsu to put the system live too soon and before known issues were fixed, and unknown issues revealed…as system and user acceptance testing timescales had been compressed to fit with POL timescales and demands. Until we find out if any of that was the case I will have some sympathy with Fujitsu, but I am sure that Fujitsu will have a confidentiality gag preventing them from saying very much…I’m not aware we have heard much from them on the matter.

The subsequent cover-up, and hounding and persecution of the subbies is a separate annd quite another matter.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Just how many victims are there?

The monster keeps growing and growing. 2 weeks ago, reporting led us to believe it was over 500. Then it was over 700, and now it 983 wrongful convictions. But it doesn’t stop there. Including those that paid back supposed thefts but weren’t prosecuted there are over 4,000 claimants.

How on earth can there be over 4,000 subPostMasters with similar accounting issues and the Post Office not recognise it’s a system failure?

From the docudrama the 500+ number would be the 555 (I think it was) that Alan Bates ended up gathering at the outset that his lawyer advised would be required to commence the court action with any chance of success.

If the mesh of the net is too fine the fisherman will haul a lot more out of the sea than what he wishes to catch. But if he delays or does does not throw back the small fry, they will suffer or die too.

 

[Hobbit]

For those whose interest has been piqued enough to start watching the Post Office Horizon IT public inquiry, yesterday was day 104. I can understand why it didn’t get any traction with the public, and has rumbled on with barely a ripple in the media until the docudrama. Yesterday’s YouTube clip could put a glass eye to sleep. It was based around the technical aspects of the faults found by two companies brought in to audit the system.

A forensic search was carried out to see if there were duplicate transactions generated by the system. A filter was set on the search that required a duplicate to be 98% of the original transaction. The hit rate was huge. The filter was then reset to 90%, with the obvious result of finding even more.

The conclusion in terms of the unsafe convictions, and all those that weren’t convicted but were forced to pay back short falls, is as expected, i.e. a massive injustice has occurred - we already know that. However, it goes beyond that in business terms… when were the last set of annual accounts accurate, when were the last set of dividends accurate? Can the Post Office survive this? Will it have to be taken back into public ownership to survive? Share price has dropped from £2.80 to £2.50 in the last month. They’ve dropped 20p in the last 2 days suggesting you can barely give them away. Maybe the price has found its level but I very much doubt it till this issue has sorted.