Post Office - Horizon scandal

[Jimaroid]

Just how many victims are there?

Not being obtuse but we’re all victims by way of taxation and services. It’s difficult not to connect the scandal with the loss of local post offices and the general decline in service. We’ve lost all our local post office facilities here in north east fife and are essentially stuck in 10 mile radius of nothing. Of course, I’m fine and can sometimes pop into a branch during a work lunch break, but there are people much more limited in the local community who only have an option of diminishing and poor bus services.


Both Computer Weekly and Private Eye have been reporting on this scandal for close to 15 years and it’s disgusting it’s taken this long to register in the wider media. Politics.

 

[doublebogey7]

For those whose interest has been piqued enough to start watching the Post Office Horizon IT public inquiry, yesterday was day 104. I can understand why it didn’t get any traction with the public, and has rumbled on with barely a ripple in the media until the docudrama. Yesterday’s YouTube clip could put a glass eye to sleep. It was based around the technical aspects of the faults found by two companies brought in to audit the system.

A forensic search was carried out to see if there were duplicate transactions generated by the system. A filter was set on the search that required a duplicate to be 98% of the original transaction. The hit rate was huge. The filter was then reset to 90%, with the obvious result of finding even more.

The conclusion in terms of the unsafe convictions, and all those that weren’t convicted but were forced to pay back short falls, is as expected, i.e. a massive injustice has occurred - we already know that. However, it goes beyond that in business terms… when were the last set of annual accounts accurate, when were the last set of dividends accurate? Can the Post Office survive this? Will it have to be taken back into public ownership to survive? Share price has dropped from £2.80 to £2.50 in the last month. They’ve dropped 20p in the last 2 days suggesting you can barely give them away. Maybe the price has found its level but I very much doubt it till this issue has sorted.

Wiki seems to think that the Post Office whilst a Ltd company is wholly owned by the Government. A Google search confirms that to be the case, so where are you seeing shares trading.

 

[Hobbit]

Wiki seems to think that the Post Office whilst a Ltd company is wholly owned by the Government. A Google search confirms that to be the case, so where are you seeing shares trading.

You’re right. I Did a search on PO share price, and it came back with the figures I quoted listed as PO shares when in reality its the Royal Mail shares, a separate entity.

 

[Hobbit]

As a reminder, the first 4 minutes of the following from the inquiry absolutely highlights… there’s no words…

 

[RichA]

It's scary that away from this specific issue, which is now a couple of decades old, I've never been more concerned than I am now about the lack of reliability in the IT in my own occupation.
We have multiple systems about to get replaced by one huge system that's generally acknowledged as being unfit for purpose in addition to multiple shared cloud drives that we've recently noticed don't reliably update shared files successfully.
I've been using computers since the early 80s and have never had less faith in the mechanisms that manage my life and my money.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Wiki seems to think that the Post Office whilst a Ltd company is wholly owned by the Government. A Google search confirms that to be the case, so where are you seeing shares trading.

Reports starting to come out this evening of government pressure on Vennells to reduce costs and exposure to compensation claims, and increase profits. Heading into politics - unfortunately but inevitably given POL is government owned and every owner and shareholder in any business wants maximum return on their investment.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Reports starting to come out this evening of government pressure on Vennells to reduce costs and exposure to compensation claims, and increase profits. Heading into politics - unfortunately but inevitably given POL is government owned and every owner and shareholder in any business wants maximum return on their investment.

I think the government plan was to get the PO showing a good profit then sell it.
Seems to have failed.

I would like to see the cost of purchasing Horizon. The cost of maintaining Horizon. That is how much of taxpayers' money went to Fujitsu.
And how much of our money was spent on the investigations and prosecutions.
And how much of our money was paid in bonuses.
And how much of our money will be paid out in re-imbursement and compensation.
And how much of our money will be spent to settle the PO tax bill.

It is our money and I believe we have a right to know.

 

[Mudball]

It's scary that away from this specific issue, which is now a couple of decades old, I've never been more concerned than I am now about the lack of reliability in the IT in my own occupation.
We have multiple systems about to get replaced by one huge system that's generally acknowledged as being unfit for purpose in addition to multiple shared cloud drives that we've recently noticed don't reliably update shared files successfully.
I've been using computers since the early 80s and have never had less faith in the mechanisms that manage my life and my money.

all in the name of progress. Having worked in tech, i see the biggest problems are generally not the tech itself but the poor requirements and poor training/support. The number of projects i have seen where firms cut back on training and change management just because the project has overshot its budget. Having said that, there is no lack of people selling the dream in the IT industry.. Just add AI, ML, Cloud, Digital to any project and it will be able to fix global warming by lunch time.

Hey even the new Callaway golf driver is called 'AI Smoke' (and mirrors perhaps)..

 

[IanM]

The number of projects i have seen where firms cut back on training and change management just because the project has overshot its budget.

Or they don't really know what Change Management is. I haven't managed to track down anyone who admits to working on the cm deployment of this..... normally someone would know someone!

Many times I've been in to talk to an organisation and they think CM is another term for project management.

Regardless. This case is the "cover up" to end them all.

 

[AussieKB]

I started in IT in the 70's, went to work in England in the 80's and 90's, came home to OZ late 90's only to get a phone call from a head hunter to come back to help with the Y2 problem, (which we created) as they were throwing money at it.

Had a great time earning crazy money and playing golf, over 200 course in England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, France and Spain, a very lucky Aussie.

 

[cliveb]

Having worked in tech, i see the biggest problems are generally not the tech itself but the poor requirements and poor training/support. The number of projects i have seen where firms cut back on training and change management just because the project has overshot its budget. Having said that, there is no lack of people selling the dream in the IT industry.. Just add AI, ML, Cloud, Digital to any project and it will be able to fix global warming by lunch time.

After working at the technical coalface of the industry since the 1970s, I have observed that the fundamental reason for failure in large outsourced projects is that over the last 20 odd years, there's been a steady supply of wet behind the ears IT graduates who've never built anything of substance and get hired as "solution architects". They have no practical experience and frankly can't design their way out of a paper bag.

 

[Mudball]

I started in IT in the 70's, went to work in England in the 80's and 90's, came home to OZ late 90's only to get a phone call from a head hunter to come back to help with the Y2 problem, (which we created) as they were throwing money at it.

Had a great time earning crazy money and playing golf, over 200 course in England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, France and Spain, a very lucky Aussie.

i worked a project in Malaysia couple of decades ago... Many years after I left the project, i got a call asking me how to update a code. It was quiet funny since my (then) company had also stepped back from that project. new company and many coders later, they kept changing the code but the only comment line they did not delete had my name in it. There was no other documentation and the whole thing was clunky... but it carried my name. So they found my contact via Linkedin and asked me if I had any old documenations!!!!

 

[Bunkermagnet]

I’m trying to work out if Fujitsu are the only software/systems provider for a Government. The reason being, I read that Fujitsu had a contract with the NHS that wasn’t working well, and was cancelled by the NHS Yet they(the NHS) had to pay out millions in comp to Fujitsu, for a system that wasn’t good enough. Doesn’t anyone learn?

 

[Mudball]

I’m trying to work out if Fujitsu are the only software/systems provider for a Government. The reason being, I read that Fujitsu had a contract with the NHS that wasn’t working well, and was cancelled by the NHS Yet they(the NHS) had to pay out millions in comp to Fujitsu, for a system that wasn’t good enough. Doesn’t anyone learn?

in the TV series, the Tory MP (cant remember his name) makes a swipe at Vennells in a meeting. When she defends the Horizon program as perfect, the MP says something on the lines of ' Well done, give the track record of Govt IT projects... this is impressive..'

 

[Tashyboy]

I’m trying to work out if Fujitsu are the only software/systems provider for a Government. The reason being, I read that Fujitsu had a contract with the NHS that wasn’t working well, and was cancelled by the NHS Yet they(the NHS) had to pay out millions in comp to Fujitsu, for a system that wasn’t good enough. Doesn’t anyone learn?

There’s a good read up in one of the papers where the Gov was unimpressed with Fujitsu and wanted to cancel
Some contracts. Fujitsu sued the Gov and the Gov gave them even more contracts.
Some folk were a tad upset.

 

[Mudball]

I’m trying to work out if Fujitsu are the only software/systems provider for a Government. The reason being, I read that Fujitsu had a contract with the NHS that wasn’t working well, and was cancelled by the NHS Yet they(the NHS) had to pay out millions in comp to Fujitsu, for a system that wasn’t good enough. Doesn’t anyone learn?

People are kicking off about a computer system... Over the past 2 decades we have shown that we have zero skills to handle any sort of project... HS2, third runway, NHS IT, Covid T&T, ePassports... the list is endless. In my memory, the only big thing we pulled off very well was the Olympics and anything to do with the Royals - weddings, funerals etc.. Other than that, we are generally pants.

 

[Tashyboy]

People are kicking off about a computer system... Over the past 2 decades we have shown that we have zero skills to handle any sort of project... HS2, third runway, NHS IT, Covid T&T, ePassports... the list is endless. In my memory, the only big thing we pulled off very well was the Olympics and anything to do with the Royals - weddings, funerals etc.. Other than that, we are generally pants.

There is a common denominator in all of those failings, ( the government) and at the same time one or two people have become very rich or richer for those failings.

 

[SocketRocket]

People are kicking off about a computer system... Over the past 2 decades we have shown that we have zero skills to handle any sort of project... HS2, third runway, NHS IT, Covid T&T, ePassports... the list is endless. In my memory, the only big thing we pulled off very well was the Olympics and anything to do with the Royals - weddings, funerals etc.. Other than that, we are generally pants.

Many if not all of these software systems are developed by foreign companies. Maybe rather than "We are pants" " They are pants"
I have to say that it's rather naive to believe huge software systems are not prone to bugs, where the post office debacle has gone wrong is the way the end users have been left holding the baby for these computer errors rather than the post office and the developer being open and honest from the start and using an initial policy that started by accepting any shortfalls were probably due to bugs in the software.

 

[Mudball]

Many if not all of these software systems are developed by foreign companies. Maybe rather than "We are pants" " They are pants"
I have to say that it's rather naive to believe huge software systems are not prone to bugs, where the post office debacle has gone wrong is the way the end users have been left holding the baby for these computer errors rather than the post office and the developer being open and honest from the start and using an initial policy that started by accepting any shortfalls were probably due to bugs in the software.

IMO that is a sweeping generalization.. I cant comment on what went wrong with the Horizon system per se. Without wanting to defend foreign companies, you are saying all Korean cars are poor and British is better. Our British beef is better than Japanses. The answer is very much nuanced. I still think we are pants due to lack of skills that have been decimated within the UK.

BTW, as far as i understand, the Horizon was initially developed by a British company - ICL... From Wikipedia >> The contract to create the system for Post Office Counters Limited and the Benefits Agency was awarded in May 1996 to ICL Pathway Limited, a subsidiary created for the purpose in 1995 by British computer company ICL, which was itself majority-owned by Fujitsu of Japan. Fujitsu's British Headquarters is in Bracknell, Berkshire.

A much better explanation of why we are pants is probably here >> https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/13/kettle_post_office_horizon/

 

[Neilds]

There is a common denominator in all of those failings, ( the government) and at the same time one or two people have become very rich or richer for those failings.

All 3 major parties have had a finger in most of these projects