Post Office - Horizon scandal

[D-S]

I don’t follow you? The talk here is of refunding payments that submasters paid to PO via banking transaction records? The first payments to redress (the incorrect) shortfalls started occuring in the year 2000. That is 24 years ago and is most definitely historic in data terms?

Sorry my mistake, i thought you were referring to Billyboots post not bobmac’s, my apologies.

 

[Billysboots]

I would love to know what investigative training Stephen Bradshaw has had.

He is coming across as incoherent, evasive, dishonest and incompetent. His competence was even questioned in evidence by a lawyer involved in one of the prosecution cases he worked on.

And it is pursuant to investigations by individuals such as Mr Bradshaw that so many people have had their lives torn apart.

Disgraceful.

 

[AmandaJR]

Ian Hislop on Peston last night - he had the right idea. And he was raging.

Plus for some reason a BBC Panorama investigation in 2022 on the scandal didn’t seem to resonate with the public- or the government - whereas a ITV docudrama in 2024 did. I can only ask why.

Well the BBC could have kept running with it and been ahead of the curve on this. They have regular segments on The Three Dads etc and highlighting their cause. They chose not to.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Well the BBC could have kept running with it and been ahead of the curve on this. They have regular segments on The Three Dads etc and highlighting their cause. They chose not to.

One might ask why…

 

[Mudball]

Ian Hislop on Peston last night - he had the right idea. And he was raging.

Plus for some reason a BBC Panorama investigation in 2022 on the scandal didn’t seem to resonate with the public- or the government - whereas a ITV docudrama in 2024 did. I can only ask why.

i missed the program, but today twitter has plenty of clips of Ian tearing into a certain political party representative.... Love the guy (Ian that is)

 

[Bunkermagnet]

And therein lies the problem, that could take years.
The victims haven't got years.
Set some money aside from the treasury now and pay back the victims what they are owed. At least that way the victims can pay their bills.
Then the treasury could argue with the PO and Fujitsu to claim that money back and about who owes what for the compensation payments.

The powers that be could do somthing really good here and earn lots of votes smarty points if they can get passed all the dour people who say you can't do that.
However, if they get it wrong and the victims are left out in the cold literally, they may themselves be out of a job soon.

I hear your point, but I for example can log into my pension provider and see exactly what my pension is worth right then, and act in whatever way I want effectively. It wouldnt be hard to find out exactlywhat pension funds these PO board and everyone involoved in this shambles and coverup and then take it away from them and put it into the pot to help pay the sub's the comp they all fully deserve.
Leave the PO board and those involved in this horrendous course of action with nothing, except a state pension. Make them feel what it's like to have everything torn away from you and left with nothing.

 

[AmandaJR]

One might ask why…

Short-sighted?

Political? Which I don't think as neither main party has covered themselves in glory.

I'm going they didn't think they could generate enough interest so let it go. Bet they're gnashing all manner of teeth that it took an ITV programme to start the storm they might have been able to.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I would love to know what investigative training Stephen Bradshaw has had.

He is coming across as incoherent, evasive, dishonest and incompetent. His competence was even questioned in evidence by a lawyer involved in one of the prosecution cases he worked on.

And it is pursuant to investigations by individuals such as Mr Bradshaw that so many people have had their lives torn apart.

Disgraceful.

I heard bits on the radio this evening. Did you know he is still investigating for the PO .

I think I'd have been quite, very, intimidated by this man and his verbal bashing. I suspect this was the point. Listening to him, he wasn't employed for his forensic investigating ability

 

[Billysboots]

I heard bits on the radio this evening. Did you know he is still investigating for the PO .

I think I'd have been quite, very, intimidated by this man and his verbal bashing. I suspect this was the point. Listening to him, he wasn't employed for his forensic investigating ability

He came across exceptionally poorly. Very arrogant, confrontational, evasive and downright economical with the truth.

I sat through his miserable attempts this afternoon to dodge questions and pass the buck to anyone and everyone but himself. Having been in court countless times during my career I like to think myself pretty familiar with the tactics lawyers use when asking their questions, most specifically that they never ask a question of fact that they do not know the answer to. I actually squirmed on Bradshaw’s behalf as he backed himself into corner after corner, as I waited for the lawyers to land knockout blow after knockout blow, which they did with ridiculous ease.

If Stephen Bradshaw is typical of how these investigations were conducted this scandal just gets bigger by the day.

 

[Jimaroid]

This is a good read from the perspective of law and justice and where reform might be needed.

The Post Office scandal is shocking—but not surprising

The systems failures that led to this miscarriage of justice are all too familiar—and without some remarkable strokes of legal luck they might never h...

www.prospectmagazine.co.uk

 

[nickjdavis]

I wonder how much of PO management held the belief that there was widespread fraud amongst its sub-post masters/mistresses, and the introduction of the Horizon system and its errors, simply provided them with the positive re-reinforcement that their suspicions were correct...and hence clouded any possibility of clear rational analysis of the situation.

 

[AmandaJR]

I wonder how much of PO management held the belief that there was widespread fraud amongst its sub-post masters/mistresses, and the introduction of the Horizon system and its errors, simply provided them with the positive re-reinforcement that their suspicions were correct...and hence clouded any possibility of clear rational analysis of the situation.

Good point. I wonder if part of the reason for Horizon's implementation was to catch those on the take. You can just imagine that conversation. Could be completely wrong but...

 

[Ross61]

What I haven’t heard at all is about main post offices. My understanding is that the Horizon system was installed in those offices too. How come we haven’t heard of discrepancies there.
Were individuals investigated or sacked?
my take is perhaps as they were employees they did not have in their contracts any requirements to pay discrepancies and were protected by unions who could rip apart any charges and also knew of the Horizon failures across the country.
But self employed sub-postmasters, acting as agents, were an easy target as they had to reimburse any losses and also could be easily isolated as they had no knowledge of other sub-postmasters having the same problems.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Short-sighted?

Political? Which I don't think as neither main party has covered themselves in glory.

I'm going they didn't think they could generate enough interest so let it go. Bet they're gnashing all manner of teeth that it took an ITV programme to start the storm they might have been able to.

Maybe BBC should have written it into Eastenders…but that’s being far too flippant given the seriousness of the scandal.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

What I haven’t heard at all is about main post offices. My understanding is that the Horizon system was installed in those offices too. How come we haven’t heard of discrepancies there.
Were individuals investigated or sacked?
my take is perhaps as they were employees they did not have in their contracts any requirements to pay discrepancies and were protected by unions who could rip apart any charges and also knew of the Horizon failures across the country.
But self employed sub-postmasters, acting as agents, were an easy target as they had to reimburse any losses and also could be easily isolated as they had no knowledge of other sub-postmasters having the same problems.

Following privatisation the sub-post offices were managed/‘owned’ as franchises..and my understanding is that many other franchises and their franchisees operate under similar constraints and demands.

 

[Hobbit]

What I haven’t heard at all is about main post offices. My understanding is that the Horizon system was installed in those offices too. How come we haven’t heard of discrepancies there.
Were individuals investigated or sacked?
my take is perhaps as they were employees they did not have in their contracts any requirements to pay discrepancies and were protected by unions who could rip apart any charges and also knew of the Horizon failures across the country.
But self employed sub-postmasters, acting as agents, were an easy target as they had to reimburse any losses and also could be easily isolated as they had no knowledge of other sub-postmasters having the same problems.

Wow, what a fantastic point!

If a sub post office can run up a deficit of, say, £20k just what can the very many town centre post offices with 5-6 counters ‘lose?’ It just gets worse and worse…

 

[chellie]

Infosys and Fujitsu announced a new partnership in October 2023.

 

[Jimaroid]

Infosys and Fujitsu announced a new partnership in October 2023.

I’d say something but, gnng, politics!

 

[Hobbit]

I would love to know what investigative training Stephen Bradshaw has had.

He is coming across as incoherent, evasive, dishonest and incompetent. His competence was even questioned in evidence by a lawyer involved in one of the prosecution cases he worked on.

And it is pursuant to investigations by individuals such as Mr Bradshaw that so many people have had their lives torn apart.

Disgraceful.

Wow!

 

[Billysboots]

Wow!

I don’t normally watch this sort of stuff, Bri, but I was glued to it. The longer it went on, the more incredulous I felt that this individual could be involved in any capacity in investigations which culminated in so many people losing so much.