Post Office - Horizon scandal

[Red devil]

There‘s been quite a play on words by several politicians as they’ve recognised the separation of Parliament and the judiciary. It’s semantics but several are say there’s a difference between convictions being quashed, exonerations, pardons and overturned. It would seem churlish, under the circumstances, to go to a halfway house before overturning a conviction. However, the separation must be upheld as it’s a slippery slope before parties make a mockery of overturning convictions for political purposes.

There must be a way to fast track overturning of convictions. A review by barristers of all cases in which there is a conviction based on Horizon, then present them all to one judge in a short session akin to a class action.

Could you imagine any politician of a devious mindset with the power to overturn convictions? Thanks for reinforcing my point

 

[ExRabbit]

Thing is the fact that the Fujitsu Support Engineer stated that the support team were doing loads of bug and data fixes overnight suggests that the system was put into ‘production’ prematurely. And something was behind that. As you say…you can run a sandbox system for thorough testing, and if there are significant risks around going live with a new system you might even consider double keying/ entry is possible short while so that cross- he king of new against old can be done. But that might not have been logistically possible.

All that notwithstanding. No responsible customer acceptance manager would sign off system testing and accept into production a business critical system riddled with bugs - especially when bugs were in standard and critical functionality. All that beggars questions around the user acceptance testing.

I was a programmer in the pharmacy industry a while back. I think about 3500 pharmacies used the system in the UK at the time.

So it was very important that the software was as bug-free as possible because lives could be at risk if things went wrong - drug interactions and so on.

I was part of a team of three programmers.

We had two people testing the software full time!

I had to stop them testing the software as a normal user and to try on purpose to make mistakes to test the strength of the software if an incompetent/drunk/tired person was using it.

Or if someone just clicked the wrong key by mistake, which was more often the case.

It was amazing how many bugs/faults showed up once they just messed around as much as they wanted to as a core part of their job.

They enjoyed their job more, and we fixed the bugs more often. Win, win.

 

[chellie]

Reading more on Twitter there are going to be 1000's of sub post masters who were affected by this.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I was a programmer in the pharmacy industry a while back. I think about 3500 pharmacies used the system in the UK at the time.

So it was very important that the software was as bug-free as possible because lives could be at risk if things went wrong - drug interactions and so on.

I was part of a team of three programmers.

We had two people testing the software full time!

I had to stop them testing the software as a normal user and to try on purpose to make mistakes to test the strength of the software if an incompetent/drunk/tired person was using it.

Or if someone just clicked the wrong key by mistake, which was more often the case.

It was amazing how many bugs/faults showed up once they just messed around as much as they wanted to as a core part of their job.

They enjoyed their job more, and we fixed the bugs more often. Win, win.

All true…the sub-postmasters were using the core functionality…and even if they made mistakes when using it there should/would have been system checks to flag up mistakes or incorrect use of basic functionalty. As you say, user acceptance testing normally includes ‘now try and break it’ testing.

The level of bug fixing around core functionality that seems to have been going on post go-live is such that I struggle to believe that UAT did not pick the problems, and so acceptance for going live was pressured from somewhere. This can happen if an existing legacy system is about to die, or is to be decommissioned or go out of support on a specific date. But I’m not aware of any such legacy system. The sub-ps were doing everything manually.

 

[bobmac]

Yes, they did nothing wrong but compensation will be slow. There'll be a few get paid out first the rest will have to wait. If they've all been paid out in 12months I'll come on here and apologise

And that is wrong.

I understand that quashing convictions could be problematic but surely repaying money owed could be done in days. There must be a record of who paid what somewhere. Start with that, then sort out the compensation on an individual basis. Remember, some of these victims cant get jobs and it's them who have to wait while the rich argue for years.
Pay them back what they are owed FIRST, then argue the toss about who pays back the emergency fund

 

[Neilds]

And that is wrong.

I understand that quashing convictions could be problematic but surely repaying money owed could be done in days. There must be a record of who paid what somewhere. Start with that, then sort out the compensation on an individual basis. Remember, some of these victims cant get jobs and it's them who have to wait while the rich argue for years.
Pay them back what they are owed FIRST, then argue the toss about who pays back the emergency fund

Agree totally. Also, where did the extra money that the post masters paid to cover the 'missing' money go? It was never missing so someone must have realised the PO had too much money? Did it go on over inflated bonuses?

 

[bobmac]

Agree totally. Also, where did the extra money that the post masters paid to cover the 'missing' money go? It was never missing so someone must have realised the PO had too much money? Did it go on over inflated bonuses?

Probably but will take years to sort out. The victims haven't got years.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

It’s going to take time let’s be honest - it’s not a case of just giving money back etc they will need to go through a period of due diligence and ensure everything is correct and also having some sort of oversight committee

It needs to be done correctly to ensure everyone is fully compensated

 

[GreiginFife]

Agree totally. Also, where did the extra money that the post masters paid to cover the 'missing' money go? It was never missing so someone must have realised the PO had too much money? Did it go on over inflated bonuses?

Unless the erroneous data was rectified then the extra money just balanced the books based on that erroneous data.

The books would just look “normal” as far as anyone looking at them were concerned. It was all just data being shifted around.

 

[bobmac]

It’s going to take time let’s be honest - it’s not a case of just giving money back etc they will need to go through a period of due diligence and ensure everything is correct and also having some sort of oversight committee

It needs to be done correctly to ensure everyone is fully compensated

There's a big difference between compensation and paying back what's owed.
I can't believe there are not computer records somewhere of who was forced to pay £1000s and that could be accessed in seconds.

 

[Jimaroid]

Unless the erroneous data was rectified then the extra money just balanced the books based on that erroneous data.

The books would just look “normal” as far as anyone looking at them were concerned. It was all just data being shifted around.

Exactly and that’s fraud, hence I think that new investigation that’s been opened. That will take years but it comes with some of the highest penalties.

Good.

 

[GreiginFife]

Exactly and that’s fraud, hence I think that new investigation that’s been opened. That will take years but it comes with some of the highest penalties.

Good.

Absolutely it’s fraud. But the question of all this extra money floating about was not really the case because of the fault in the software.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

There's a big difference between compensation and paying back what's owed.
I can't believe there are not computer records somewhere of who was forced to pay £1000s and that could be accessed in seconds.

The issue was the computer records in the first place , it needs to be done properly to ensure everything is correct . The computer records got them to this situation in the first place. I suspect they will want to ensure it’s done properly and to ensure everyone is reimbursed the correct amount.

 

[road2ruin]

Then this is a legal minefield. I know they're innocent but they should have their convictions quashed by a court not signing a piece of paper.
You could end up with a scenario of someone who did embezzle the Post Office then just sign a piece of paper saying they're innocent

Given the scale of this scandal it really doesn't matter if the odd person who embezzled from the PO gets away with it IMO.

 

[Jimaroid]

I can't believe there are not computer records somewhere of who was forced to pay £1000s and that could be accessed in seconds.

Based on the evidence that the records are wrong I fully expect the problem is a lot more complex than can be resolved in seconds.

If we know as a fact that the input data is wrong then none of the output data can be trusted.

It is simple computer science logic and a good example of the type of problem that the people responsible appear to have been incompetent with.

 

[Red devil]

And that is wrong.

I understand that quashing convictions could be problematic but surely repaying money owed could be done in days. There must be a record of who paid what somewhere. Start with that, then sort out the compensation on an individual basis. Remember, some of these victims cant get jobs and it's them who have to wait while the rich argue for years.
Pay them back what they are owed FIRST, then argue the toss about who pays back the emergency fund

It is wrong. But look back over the past compensation offers and see how they've dragged their feet. Don't forget they've known about this scandal for years and dismissed it. They're only doing something now because they've been shamed into doing so.

 

[patricks148]

one thing is upsetting is this has been going on for years, even the fist court cases where convictions were overturned was 4 years ago, but make a TV drama about it and its front page new every day since.

maybe there needs to be a few more Tv drama made about outstanding miscarriage's of justice

 

[Jimaroid]

Absolutely it’s fraud. But the question of all this extra money floating about was not really the case because of the fault in the software.

For clarity I think an approach of blanket compensation would be quicker and preferable as has been suggested previously. Seeking individual refunds would likely be the most error laden and chaotic approach.

Patrick, I agree and I think it’s secondary scandal that it takes a TV drama to enact change. Politics though.

 

[GreiginFife]

For clarity I think an approach of blanket compensation would be quicker and preferable as has been suggested previously. Seeking individual refunds would likely be the most error laden and chaotic approach.

Patrick, I agree and I think it’s secondary scandal that it takes a TV drama to enact change. Politics though.

I think you said it above. The data is the issue and unless they know what each individual data error was then trying to work backwards to calculate each overpayment individually would take a while and just delay the whole process. I can't see Fujitsu co-operating on this as the Post Office project sponsors will have signed off on the work.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

For a prime example of injustice and how long it takes for the truth to emerge then look no further than the bitter fight of those that died at Hillsborough went through.