POLL: How do you feel about WHS?

[wjemather]

I don't think anyone suggested that.

Someone did.

 

[RichA]

I don't think anyone suggested that. Personally I always knew there were loads of pay and play guys who were not big into competitive golf who'd probably either not care too much about handicapping or quite liked the ability to watch it all on an app.

The previous system didn't need an improvement in its workings but it may have benefited from better accessibility for pay and play, less serious golfers. I can see that was an aim, especially in England and Wales. Ireland hasn't got that problem. Of course creating that app would cost money and obviously the R&A would want to spend as little as possible so that's probably one of the factors that made them move away from our tried and tested UK and Ireland system in order to spread the cost.

Now they have a problem. There is no doubt about that. They either have to spend money and go back or persuade the rest of the world to fix this system adequately for competitive play in UK and Ire to be credible again, at least from many players' viewpoint.

My mistake. The expression used was "universally detested", not despised.

They got somebody to write an algorithm to spit out HIs from a massive spreadsheet of individual rounds and it was presumably thought to be the best and easiest to manage without excessive human interaction by volunteer handicap secretaries.
Many golfers, myself included, think it could be tweaked to be improved but most don't seem to think it needs to be scrapped.

 

[doublebogey7]

How hard a course plays is related to your individual strengths. WHS has standardised the golfer through over simplistic statistical analysis and that's its fundamental mistake. All golfers are different. I think I've mentioned this before but the average human being has one breast and one testicle.

So how would you do it

 

[IanMac]

So how would you do it

In order to decide on someone's handicap at the start I would take a number of factors into account. Obviously I'd get them to score a few rounds in different conditions with different players I knew. I'd look at the swing and nature of the bad shots. I'd pay particular attention to short game and putting because that is where the most shots are wasted. I'd then make an assessment based on my, and others', experience. I'd give him a handicap that he'd feel proud to win off. A carrot that isn't out of reach. Then, if and when, he does win he doesn't get run out of town.

That's how we used to do it.

 

[wjemather]

In order to decide on someone's handicap at the start I would take a number of factors into account. Obviously I'd get them to score a few rounds in different conditions with different players I knew. I'd look at the swing and nature of the bad shots. I'd pay particular attention to short game and putting because that is where the most shots are wasted. I'd then make an assessment based on my, and others', experience. I'd give him a handicap that he'd feel proud to win off. A carrot that isn't out of reach. Then, if and when, he does win he doesn't get run out of town.

That's how we used to do it.

What handicap system was this? It's certainly isn't how the old CONGU system worked.

 

[IanMac]

So how would you do it

Allow me to give you another example of how the course rating system falls down. My course is a tough track. Tee shots are what makes it difficult. Fairway bunkers are strategically placed and are in play off medal tees for most golfers who are single figures. We also have forward tees, used to be called ladies tees, and championship tees. The CR difference between medal and forward is 3.6. Between medal and championship it is 3.8.

Here's the thing. A scratch player playing off either championship or forward tees has no longer to worry about the bunkers. He either can't reach them or he can easily clear them.

We have choice of tee competitions, which again I'm not keen on, but the low guys, when they do play, never choose to play off medal tees anymore. In fact the medal tees rarely throws up a winner. Sad for the course design...

Is choosing a tee in a multiple tee competition that allows you to avoid most hazards a form of cheating now made possible by this system?

 

[IanMac]

What handicap system was this? It's certainly isn't how the old CONGU system worked.

Are you saying that a club handicap adjudicator didn't use judgement? It was a specific fixed algorithm than ran over the 3 cards? Maybe it was in some clubs but we used our judgement and new members got integrated properly.

 

[IanMac]

What we've got with WHS is a second class system that has come about because there are clubs that have members but no core committee with experience and no Pro. Online practices have put many pros out of business. They used to step up and help with handicapping in many clubs.

 

[Hank]

Allow me to give you another example of how the course rating system falls down. My course is a tough track. Tee shots are what makes it difficult. Fairway bunkers are strategically placed and are in play off medal tees for most golfers who are single figures. We also have forward tees, used to be called ladies tees, and championship tees. The CR difference between medal and forward is 3.6. Between medal and championship it is 3.8.

Here's the thing. A scratch player playing off either championship or forward tees has no longer to worry about the bunkers. He either can't reach them or he can easily clear them.

We have choice of tee competitions, which again I'm not keen on, but the low guys, when they do play, never choose to play off medal tees anymore. In fact the medal tees rarely throws up a winner. Sad for the course design...

All competition golf should be played off white/medal tees.

 

[IanMac]

All competition golf should be played off white/medal tees.

I joined a nearby club for that specific reason. They play off the same medal tee in competition. My original club, and I'm still a member, will eventually change back as most members don't like it. Apparently it's all about equality and inclusion. Again, backfiring.

 

[rulefan]

In order to decide on someone's handicap at the start I would take a number of factors into account. Obviously I'd get them to score a few rounds in different conditions with different players I knew. I'd look at the swing and nature of the bad shots. I'd pay particular attention to short game and putting because that is where the most shots are wasted. I'd then make an assessment based on my, and others', experience. I'd give him a handicap that he'd feel proud to win off. A carrot that isn't out of reach. Then, if and when, he does win he doesn't get run out of town.

That's how we used to do it.

So an almost entirely subjective method by (presumably) untrained people only on one course, ignoring CONGU rules.
Would all clubs be able to volunteer man hours required given that many clubs can't even find competent h'cap committees?

 

[IanMac]

So an almost entirely subjective method by (presumably) untrained people only on one course, ignoring CONGU rules.
Would all clubs be able to volunteer man hours required given that many clubs can't even find competent h'cap committees?

No they can't. That's why some clubs are better than others.

 

[wjemather]

Are you saying that a club handicap adjudicator didn't use judgement? It was a specific fixed algorithm than ran over the 3 cards? Maybe it was in some clubs but we used our judgement and new members got integrated properly.

Initial handicaps were allotted by means of a specific calculation, based on the lowest adjusted gross differential (double par maximum hole score) from the 3 18-hole scores:

• Initial Handicap = (LAGD + (LAGD*0.13))/ 1.237 [truncated to provide a whole number]

A lower initial handicap was only allotted when considered more appropriate to the players ability this was determined from previous playing history and handicap, difficult conditions when the scores were submitted, known ability reported by peers, etc. - it certainly did not mean assessing things that handicap committees and ordinary golfers are very much not qualified to do, such as the players swing, short game or putting stroke. The first few scores submitted following initial allotment were reviewed to determine is any adjustment was necessary.

Seems like your club went rogue.

 

[wjemather]

All competition golf should be played off white/medal tees.

There's nothing special about run-of-the-mill recreational amateur club competitions. They should be played off the tees that make the game most enjoyable for the participants - which can be mixed tee if necessary.

 

[IanMac]

Initial handicaps were allotted by means of a specific calculation, based on the lowest adjusted gross differential (double par maximum hole score) from the 3 18-hole scores:

• Initial Handicap = (LAGD + (LAGD*0.13))/ 1.237 [truncated to provide a whole number]

A lower initial handicap was only allotted when considered more appropriate to the players ability this was determined from previous playing history and handicap, difficult conditions when the scores were submitted, known ability reported by peers, etc. - it certainly did not mean assessing things that handicap committees and ordinary golfers are very much not qualified to do, such as the players swing, short game or putting stroke. The first few scores submitted following initial allotment were reviewed to determine is any adjustment was necessary.

Seems like your club went rogue.

Known ability reported by peers

That's another way of putting it if you like. It's not a rogue club, far from it. Since WHS all at sea with handicapping as we get to grips. Much like Golf Ireland are trying to do. Messy and taking time but it will work itself out.

 

[IanMac]

There's nothing special about run-of-the-mill recreational amateur club competitions. They should be played off the tees that make the game most enjoyable for the participants - which can be mixed tee if necessary

Says you. What you're saying is that handicap amateur golf doesn't really matter. That would explain why you think WHS is ok.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

There's nothing special about run-of-the-mill recreational amateur club competitions. They should be played off the tees that make the game most enjoyable for the participants - which can be mixed tee if necessary.

No they shouldn't

 

[RichA]

Says you. What you're saying is that handicap amateur golf doesn't really matter. That would explain why you think WHS is ok.

It matters, but it doesn't really matter. It's recreation at amateur handicap level.
If it really mattered it would be governed by legislation, not voluntary representatives at recreational sports clubs.

 

[wjemather]

Says you. What you're saying is that handicap amateur golf doesn't really matter. That would explain why you think WHS is ok.

It doesn't really. Whether in a casual round with mates or in a competition, it's still just a hobby. Regular run-of-the-mill club handicap competitions are just a bit of added fun, nothing more, even if there is a trophy/board at the end of it.

 

[IanMac]

It doesn't. Whether in a casual round with mates or in a competition, it's still just a hobby. Regular run-of-the-mill club handicap competitions are just a bit of added fun, nothing more, even if there is a trophy/board at the end of it.

Can't work you out. You put a lot of input into this forum and turns out you're not that bothered. Moving on then ..