Patrick Read’s caddie

Philbyk1

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If he is using the flag to help them I think he breaking 4.3.
Colin I understand now that you are hot on the rules so thanks for confirming no breach of rule 4.3.
Are there any places you can’t place the flag? E.g. if you had a steep down hill putt and you placed the flag to the side but parallel to the hole would this be using an artificial aid to help gauge the slope?
Or if you assessed an uphill putt was playing say twice as long as it’s actual distance could you place the flag behind the hole twice the distance to help with distance control.
 

Philbyk1

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Colin I understand now that you are hot on the rules so thanks for confirming no breach of rule 4.3.
Are there any places you can’t place the flag? E.g. if you had a steep down hill putt and you placed the flag to the side but parallel to the hole would this be using an artificial aid to help gauge the slope?
Or if you assessed an uphill putt was playing say twice as long as it’s actual distance could you place the flag behind the hole twice the distance to help with distance control.
Sorry to save you pointing it out I am aware that the flag has to be removed before putting.
 

Colin L

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I've done Aimpoint and cant see any benefit from laying the flag stick down. Aimpoint is all about standing up and measuring slope and break through your feet, walking along between ball and cup and remeasuring and finally getting the break from using fingers and arm length to measure and calibrate the Aimpoint.

Anyway, if ColinL says theres no infringement then there is no infringement!

Steady on! That's too scary an endorsement considering the number of mistakes I've made over time.
 

Colin L

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Sorry to save you pointing it out I am aware that the flag has to be removed before putting.

I wouldn't do that as there isn't any requirement to take the flagstick out before putting. ;) Prior to the major rules revision in 2019 there was a penalty for hitting the flagstick if your ball was on the putting green but nothing to stop you putting with it in. Now there is no penalty.
 

jim8flog

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I can see how it could help you square up aligning a putt, but if it is removed before the putt , what's the problem.
Same idea as putting a club down to align your feet at address, then remove it .:confused:

That definitely is a penalty
10.2 b (2)

• The player or caddie must not set an object down anywhere on or off the putting green to show the line of play. This is not allowed even if that object is removed before the stroke is made.
 

rulefan

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That definitely is a penalty
10.2 b (2)

• The player or caddie must not set an object down anywhere on or off the putting green to show the line of play. This is not allowed even if that object is removed before the stroke is made.
How does a flagstick set at right angles do that. It is giving a 6'+ target. Surely it can only give an indication of a borrow.
 

SaintHacker

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Clearly his comments to me were meant to be mocking and derogatory but I apologise if this is not the case.

I was going to leave it but i will reply.
My comments weren't meant to be mocking towards you, it was aimed at people wjho think just they've got something someone else hasnt (in your case a single figure handicap) it somehow makes them better than someone else. Just because you're a single figure player doesn't automatically mean you knkw the rules well, as your post on putting with the flag in proves. But hey, if going down the personal abuse route makes you feel better knock yourself out, its nice and easy from behind the security of a keyboard...
 

Colin L

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@Philbyk1
Back to Reed's caddie's antics with the flagstick and Rule 4.3. Here's an idea of the sort of sequence you might go through in reaching a ruling. First, read the relevant rule!
https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/the-rules-of-golf/rule-4#4-3

Then you really want to be able to ask the caddie why he is doing what he is doing.

Then it's a bit like a flowchart:

The rule is about equipment. Is the flagstick equipment ? Check the Definition of equipment. If no, the rule isn't applicable. If yes, carry on.
Carrying on, what does the rule tell us we can do with equipment? We can use it to help our play.
Any exceptions to this general permission? If no, then the caddie is not in breach of the rule. If yes, what is excepted?
a) abnormal use of equipment in the making of a stroke;
b) using equipment artificially to avoid the skills and judgments needed in the game;
but only if it created a potential advantage.
a) isn't relevant as the flagstick isn't being used in making a stroke;
b) raises the questions (i) is it being used artificially and (ii) if so, is it eliminating or reducing skills .

To consider if it's artificial use, take a look at the list of examples of what is not permitted and you'll see they relate to devices and instruments used for measuring. Would you put a flagstick in that sort of category?
Does it actually measure anything? If so, what skills and judgements does it eliminate or reduce? If there are any, does the elimination or reduction create a potential advantage for the player? An advantage say over other players armed with their wee books of notes on the topography of each green?
 

Philbyk1

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@Philbyk1
Back to Reed's caddie's antics with the flagstick and Rule 4.3. Here's an idea of the sort of sequence you might go through in reaching a ruling. First, read the relevant rule!
https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/the-rules-of-golf/rule-4#4-3

Then you really want to be able to ask the caddie why he is doing what he is doing.

Then it's a bit like a flowchart:

The rule is about equipment. Is the flagstick equipment ? Check the Definition of equipment. If no, the rule isn't applicable. If yes, carry on.
Carrying on, what does the rule tell us we can do with equipment? We can use it to help our play.
Any exceptions to this general permission? If no, then the caddie is not in breach of the rule. If yes, what is excepted?
a) abnormal use of equipment in the making of a stroke;
b) using equipment artificially to avoid the skills and judgments needed in the game;
but only if it created a potential advantage.
a) isn't relevant as the flagstick isn't being used in making a stroke;
b) raises the questions (i) is it being used artificially and (ii) if so, is it eliminating or reducing skills .

To consider if it's artificial use, take a look at the list of examples of what is not permitted and you'll see they relate to devices and instruments used for measuring. Would you put a flagstick in that sort of category?
Does it actually measure anything? If so, what skills and judgements does it eliminate or reduce? If there are any, does the elimination or reduction create a potential advantage for the player? An advantage say over other players armed with their wee books of notes on the topography of each green?
That is really useful and really gets to the crux. I think you could use the flag stick to create an advantage. Take this example: you are faced with a down hill putt which looks like the slope reduces in camber towards the hole. To check this you place the flag stick parallel to the line of the putt. If the flag is not flush to the ground but shows a gap between the green and flag between the top and borrow it confirms the slope reduces in slope. You are used the flag to help read the putt. Green books are not allowed in all tournaments including the Masters. If you agree then if our caddie friend has found some way of using the flag (Yet to be determined) in some way I believe it is illegal.
 

Philbyk1

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I was going to leave it but i will reply.
My comments weren't meant to be mocking towards you, it was aimed at people wjho think just they've got something someone else hasnt (in your case a single figure handicap) it somehow makes them better than someone else. Just because you're a single figure player doesn't automatically mean you knkw the rules well, as your post on putting with the flag in proves. But hey, if going down the personal abuse route makes you feel better knock yourself out, its nice and easy from behind the security of a keyboard...
Sorry again my comment about my handicap was a reaction to a post suggesting that I address my response to people who actually play the game and not in any way designed to imply any superiority.
 

Philbyk1

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Sorry again my comment about my handicap was a reaction to a post suggesting that I address my response to people who actually play the game and not in any way designed to imply any superiority.
My comment about moving the flag was when it is placed on the green for line of site not in the hole.
 

chrisd

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I cant believe with all the attention Reed gets when playing that if it were thought that he,or his caddy, were in any way infringing rules then it would be all over the media. Also, as I said earlier, I've done Aimpoint with Jamie Donaldson and in no way is it similar to what you say Reeds caddy does and I cant see any benefit being derived from it at the level that the top players play ie he simply would not need to do it as he is a fantastic green reader and putter.

I'd just add too that I've had at least as much of a problem with single figure golfers not knowing the rules as I have had with high handicappers - the difference being that the low handicappers are usually more adamant about being right
 

Swango1980

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The OP is a fair question, even if there is ultimately no rules breach. Personally, I wouldn't be able to gain any advantage from doing this, so I struggle to see how Reed is getting any advantage. As someone else said, Reed will be accompanied with referees and other players, and what he is doing is clear to all. So, if it was illegal, then he'd surely have been penalised for it already?

However, let's say he actually was doing it to gain some sort of advantage, rather than some weird habit. And, then other players started doing it because it helped them read the slope of the greens. Would golf officials review whether this is legal or not? No idea, although I personally think green books should be illegal but the officials are happy with those in many cases.
 

Philbyk1

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I cant believe with all the attention Reed gets when playing that if it were thought that he,or his caddy, were in any way infringing rules then it would be all over the media. Also, as I said earlier, I've done Aimpoint with Jamie Donaldson and in no way is it similar to what you say Reeds caddy does and I cant see any benefit being derived from it at the level that the top players play ie he simply would not need to do it as he is a fantastic green reader and putter.

I'd just add too that I've had at least as much of a problem with single figure golfers not knowing the rules as I have had with high handicappers - the difference being that the low handicappers are usually more adamant about being right
Thanks I have no idea why he does it. My thoughts were around helping with the first part of aim point access the slope at the ball position not the full process.
 

Philbyk1

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The OP is a fair question, even if there is ultimately no rules breach. Personally, I wouldn't be able to gain any advantage from doing this, so I struggle to see how Reed is getting any advantage. As someone else said, Reed will be accompanied with referees and other players, and what he is doing is clear to all. So, if it was illegal, then he'd surely have been penalised for it already?

However, let's say he actually was doing it to gain some sort of advantage, rather than some weird habit. And, then other players started doing it because it helped them read the slope of the greens. Would golf officials review whether this is legal or not? No idea, although I personally think green books should be illegal but the officials are happy with those in many cases.
? agree with green books. Interesting how many misreads Bryson had at the masters without his encyclopaedia with him. Your last paragraph is the main point. If he is getting an advantage is that fair under 4.3
 

nickjdavis

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That is really useful and really gets to the crux. I think you could use the flag stick to create an advantage. Take this example: you are faced with a down hill putt which looks like the slope reduces in camber towards the hole. To check this you place the flag stick parallel to the line of the putt. If the flag is not flush to the ground but shows a gap between the green and flag between the top and borrow it confirms the slope reduces in slope. You are used the flag to help read the putt. Green books are not allowed in all tournaments including the Masters. If you agree then if our caddie friend has found some way of using the flag (Yet to be determined) in some way I believe it is illegal.

This just wouldn't work as you describe...flagsticks are quite weighty but flexible...when you lay one down it would naturally bend and sit pretty much flat to the ground. for it to do what you think it will do the flagstick would need to be rigidly stiff.
 

yandabrown

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This just wouldn't work as you describe...flagsticks are quite weighty but flexible...when you lay one down it would naturally bend and sit pretty much flat to the ground. for it to do what you think it will do the flagstick would need to be rigidly stiff.
And the bit at the bottom is usually a little wider than the rest so would naturally slope even on level ground.
 

clubchamp98

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This just wouldn't work as you describe...flagsticks are quite weighty but flexible...when you lay one down it would naturally bend and sit pretty much flat to the ground. for it to do what you think it will do the flagstick would need to be rigidly stiff.
Have seen very rigid ones though.
That taper at the bottom .
They don’t bend at all, and weigh a ton.
 
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