Patrick Read’s caddie

SaintHacker

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Clearly his comments to me were meant to be mocking and derogatory but I apologise if this is not the case.
I was going to leave it but i will reply.
My comments weren't meant to be mocking towards you, it was aimed at people wjho think just they've got something someone else hasnt (in your case a single figure handicap) it somehow makes them better than someone else. Just because you're a single figure player doesn't automatically mean you knkw the rules well, as your post on putting with the flag in proves. But hey, if going down the personal abuse route makes you feel better knock yourself out, its nice and easy from behind the security of a keyboard...
 

Colin L

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@Philbyk1
Back to Reed's caddie's antics with the flagstick and Rule 4.3. Here's an idea of the sort of sequence you might go through in reaching a ruling. First, read the relevant rule!
https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/the-rules-of-golf/rule-4#4-3

Then you really want to be able to ask the caddie why he is doing what he is doing.

Then it's a bit like a flowchart:

The rule is about equipment. Is the flagstick equipment ? Check the Definition of equipment. If no, the rule isn't applicable. If yes, carry on.
Carrying on, what does the rule tell us we can do with equipment? We can use it to help our play.
Any exceptions to this general permission? If no, then the caddie is not in breach of the rule. If yes, what is excepted?
a) abnormal use of equipment in the making of a stroke;
b) using equipment artificially to avoid the skills and judgments needed in the game;
but only if it created a potential advantage.
a) isn't relevant as the flagstick isn't being used in making a stroke;
b) raises the questions (i) is it being used artificially and (ii) if so, is it eliminating or reducing skills .

To consider if it's artificial use, take a look at the list of examples of what is not permitted and you'll see they relate to devices and instruments used for measuring. Would you put a flagstick in that sort of category?
Does it actually measure anything? If so, what skills and judgements does it eliminate or reduce? If there are any, does the elimination or reduction create a potential advantage for the player? An advantage say over other players armed with their wee books of notes on the topography of each green?
 

Traminator

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How does a flagstick set at right angles do that. It is giving a 6'+ target. Surely it can only give an indication of a borrow.
Both Jim and I were actually replying to post 85, williamalex said placing a putter down to indicate line of play for feet alignment is OK as long as you pick up the putter.
 
Thread starter #105
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@Philbyk1
Back to Reed's caddie's antics with the flagstick and Rule 4.3. Here's an idea of the sort of sequence you might go through in reaching a ruling. First, read the relevant rule!
https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/the-rules-of-golf/rule-4#4-3

Then you really want to be able to ask the caddie why he is doing what he is doing.

Then it's a bit like a flowchart:

The rule is about equipment. Is the flagstick equipment ? Check the Definition of equipment. If no, the rule isn't applicable. If yes, carry on.
Carrying on, what does the rule tell us we can do with equipment? We can use it to help our play.
Any exceptions to this general permission? If no, then the caddie is not in breach of the rule. If yes, what is excepted?
a) abnormal use of equipment in the making of a stroke;
b) using equipment artificially to avoid the skills and judgments needed in the game;
but only if it created a potential advantage.
a) isn't relevant as the flagstick isn't being used in making a stroke;
b) raises the questions (i) is it being used artificially and (ii) if so, is it eliminating or reducing skills .

To consider if it's artificial use, take a look at the list of examples of what is not permitted and you'll see they relate to devices and instruments used for measuring. Would you put a flagstick in that sort of category?
Does it actually measure anything? If so, what skills and judgements does it eliminate or reduce? If there are any, does the elimination or reduction create a potential advantage for the player? An advantage say over other players armed with their wee books of notes on the topography of each green?
That is really useful and really gets to the crux. I think you could use the flag stick to create an advantage. Take this example: you are faced with a down hill putt which looks like the slope reduces in camber towards the hole. To check this you place the flag stick parallel to the line of the putt. If the flag is not flush to the ground but shows a gap between the green and flag between the top and borrow it confirms the slope reduces in slope. You are used the flag to help read the putt. Green books are not allowed in all tournaments including the Masters. If you agree then if our caddie friend has found some way of using the flag (Yet to be determined) in some way I believe it is illegal.
 
Thread starter #106
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I was going to leave it but i will reply.
My comments weren't meant to be mocking towards you, it was aimed at people wjho think just they've got something someone else hasnt (in your case a single figure handicap) it somehow makes them better than someone else. Just because you're a single figure player doesn't automatically mean you knkw the rules well, as your post on putting with the flag in proves. But hey, if going down the personal abuse route makes you feel better knock yourself out, its nice and easy from behind the security of a keyboard...
Sorry again my comment about my handicap was a reaction to a post suggesting that I address my response to people who actually play the game and not in any way designed to imply any superiority.
 
Thread starter #107
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Sorry again my comment about my handicap was a reaction to a post suggesting that I address my response to people who actually play the game and not in any way designed to imply any superiority.
My comment about moving the flag was when it is placed on the green for line of site not in the hole.
 

chrisd

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I cant believe with all the attention Reed gets when playing that if it were thought that he,or his caddy, were in any way infringing rules then it would be all over the media. Also, as I said earlier, I've done Aimpoint with Jamie Donaldson and in no way is it similar to what you say Reeds caddy does and I cant see any benefit being derived from it at the level that the top players play ie he simply would not need to do it as he is a fantastic green reader and putter.

I'd just add too that I've had at least as much of a problem with single figure golfers not knowing the rules as I have had with high handicappers - the difference being that the low handicappers are usually more adamant about being right
 

Swango1980

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The OP is a fair question, even if there is ultimately no rules breach. Personally, I wouldn't be able to gain any advantage from doing this, so I struggle to see how Reed is getting any advantage. As someone else said, Reed will be accompanied with referees and other players, and what he is doing is clear to all. So, if it was illegal, then he'd surely have been penalised for it already?

However, let's say he actually was doing it to gain some sort of advantage, rather than some weird habit. And, then other players started doing it because it helped them read the slope of the greens. Would golf officials review whether this is legal or not? No idea, although I personally think green books should be illegal but the officials are happy with those in many cases.
 
Thread starter #110
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I cant believe with all the attention Reed gets when playing that if it were thought that he,or his caddy, were in any way infringing rules then it would be all over the media. Also, as I said earlier, I've done Aimpoint with Jamie Donaldson and in no way is it similar to what you say Reeds caddy does and I cant see any benefit being derived from it at the level that the top players play ie he simply would not need to do it as he is a fantastic green reader and putter.

I'd just add too that I've had at least as much of a problem with single figure golfers not knowing the rules as I have had with high handicappers - the difference being that the low handicappers are usually more adamant about being right
Thanks I have no idea why he does it. My thoughts were around helping with the first part of aim point access the slope at the ball position not the full process.
 
Thread starter #111
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The OP is a fair question, even if there is ultimately no rules breach. Personally, I wouldn't be able to gain any advantage from doing this, so I struggle to see how Reed is getting any advantage. As someone else said, Reed will be accompanied with referees and other players, and what he is doing is clear to all. So, if it was illegal, then he'd surely have been penalised for it already?

However, let's say he actually was doing it to gain some sort of advantage, rather than some weird habit. And, then other players started doing it because it helped them read the slope of the greens. Would golf officials review whether this is legal or not? No idea, although I personally think green books should be illegal but the officials are happy with those in many cases.
👍 agree with green books. Interesting how many misreads Bryson had at the masters without his encyclopaedia with him. Your last paragraph is the main point. If he is getting an advantage is that fair under 4.3
 
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That is really useful and really gets to the crux. I think you could use the flag stick to create an advantage. Take this example: you are faced with a down hill putt which looks like the slope reduces in camber towards the hole. To check this you place the flag stick parallel to the line of the putt. If the flag is not flush to the ground but shows a gap between the green and flag between the top and borrow it confirms the slope reduces in slope. You are used the flag to help read the putt. Green books are not allowed in all tournaments including the Masters. If you agree then if our caddie friend has found some way of using the flag (Yet to be determined) in some way I believe it is illegal.
This just wouldn't work as you describe...flagsticks are quite weighty but flexible...when you lay one down it would naturally bend and sit pretty much flat to the ground. for it to do what you think it will do the flagstick would need to be rigidly stiff.
 
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This just wouldn't work as you describe...flagsticks are quite weighty but flexible...when you lay one down it would naturally bend and sit pretty much flat to the ground. for it to do what you think it will do the flagstick would need to be rigidly stiff.
And the bit at the bottom is usually a little wider than the rest so would naturally slope even on level ground.
 

clubchamp98

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This just wouldn't work as you describe...flagsticks are quite weighty but flexible...when you lay one down it would naturally bend and sit pretty much flat to the ground. for it to do what you think it will do the flagstick would need to be rigidly stiff.
Have seen very rigid ones though.
That taper at the bottom .
They don’t bend at all, and weigh a ton.
 
Thread starter #116
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Have seen very rigid ones though.
That taper at the bottom .
They don’t bend at all, and weigh a ton.
Yes these are tournament ones that are a little more javelin shaped, thicker in the middle for visibility, as you say weigh a tonne and would serve well in my example.
 

clubchamp98

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Yes these are tournament ones that are a little more javelin shaped, thicker in the middle for visibility, as you say weigh a tonne and would serve well in my example.
Mainly seen them in the USA.
They are the same width as the end that goes in the hole.
That’s why they have the tapered bottom 12” or so.
Very interesting theory ,might give it a go tomorrow weather permitting.
But dosnt look good on forecast.
 
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