Patrick Read’s caddie

Joined
Oct 1, 2013
Messages
5,614
Location
Four miles too far!
Experts though can we trust them?;)
Slightly more than some fruit
Having thought about this much more I think you might have something.
It will be easier to see a slope if the flag is placed across it, ie one end of the flag can be seen to be higher than the other when crouching to look back at at the flag as Patrick does, if this breaks the rules or not I can't say for sure but I think it's certainly using the flagstick in a different way to it's designed purpose, if that's what they're doing.

Whether or not this makes me arrogant I don't know but I'm on your side Philby.
In which case perhaps you would care to explain why no official, player, caddy, commentator or journalist has called the caddy out and just which rule has been broken?

This is rapidly turning into an exercise for the golfing tin foil hat brigade.
 
Thread starter #142
Joined
Dec 13, 2020
Messages
73
Just look at it yourselves and make your own minds up. He does at least 4 times on the extended sky highlights plus numerous pictures so I am clearly not winding you up.
There has been no logical explanation as to why he does it which is what I was asking originally. What an extraordinary site.
 
Thread starter #143
Joined
Dec 13, 2020
Messages
73
Slightly more than some fruit

In which case perhaps you would care to explain why no official, player, caddy, commentator or journalist has called the caddy out and just which rule has been broken?

This is rapidly turning into an exercise for the golfing tin foil hat brigade.
 
Thread starter #145
Joined
Dec 13, 2020
Messages
73
Having thought about this much more I think you might have something.
It will be easier to see a slope if the flag is placed across it, ie one end of the flag can be seen to be higher than the other when crouching to look back at at the flag as Patrick does, if this breaks the rules or not I can't say for sure but I think it's certainly using the flagstick in a different way to it's designed purpose, if that's what they're doing.

Whether or not this makes me arrogant I don't know but I'm on your side Philby.
 
Thread starter #147
Joined
Dec 13, 2020
Messages
73
Crow you must a Loony, Bonkers, arrogant wind up merchant, know all, Porsche driving, ping playing, anti scientist, dead horse flogging, Sherry drinking, Covid denying, flat earther!
 
Joined
Dec 16, 2020
Messages
4
Dear Philbyk1

That's quite some introduction to this rules forum that you have garnered. Some respondents appear to have reacted as though to an unwelcome invader from the Red Planet. But that is not a view I share.

You have raised an interesting issue and a genuine rules question, based on perceptive observation of the routine green reading drill that Reed's caddie follows. It also appears there is nothing accidental in this routine and Patrick Reed is entirely comfortable in working with the process. So is anything amiss, rules wise?

After thinking through the issues (as any good question requires you to do) IMO there is no rules breach and I get there through the process below.

Potential rules to consider are 4.3a Allowed and Prohibited Uses of Equipment and 10.2b Other Help.

On 4.3a, I really can't see this action eliminating or reducing the need for skill or judgement more generally, but Interpretation 4.3a(1)/1 - which provides some guidance on restrictions on gauging slope - merits consideration as that would appear to be the main intent of the exercise. However, I suggest laying something across the green behind the position of the ball at something like perpendicular to the line of play does not clash with any of the examples of misbehaviour that the Interpretation provides. Equally, I would not see any breach in a player/caddie laying the putter on the green in a similar way. Ergo, no 4.3a breach. (Aside: as Colin L pointed out, if this was being formally considered by a referee/Committee, the player and caddie would need to be asked about their intent.)

On 10.2b, we have specific guidance that rules out pointing out line of play for ball on putting green, setting down an object to help in taking stance and restrictions on standing behind a player after commencing taking a stance. But the caddie's actions do not overlap with any of these.

Thank you for raising this, it moved me to sign up and offer these observations based on my rules knowledge and experience. I guess I'll now learn if all new chums are similarly baptised.
 
Thread starter #149
Joined
Dec 13, 2020
Messages
73
Crow you may interested in these shots showing Reed looking from behind the caddie. He even does when he has to lie off the green. Bizarre? I have no idea what is g
Dear Philbyk1

That's quite some introduction to this rules forum that you have garnered. Some respondents appear to have reacted as though to an unwelcome invader from the Red Planet. But that is not a view I share.

You have raised an interesting issue and a genuine rules question, based on perceptive observation of the routine green reading drill that Reed's caddie follows. It also appears there is nothing accidental in this routine and Patrick Reed is entirely comfortable in working with the process. So is anything amiss, rules wise?

After thinking through the issues (as any good question requires you to do) IMO there is no rules breach and I get there through the process below.

Potential rules to consider are 4.3a Allowed and Prohibited Uses of Equipment and 10.2b Other Help.

On 4.3a, I really can't see this action eliminating or reducing the need for skill or judgement more generally, but Interpretation 4.3a(1)/1 - which provides some guidance on restrictions on gauging slope - merits consideration as that would appear to be the main intent of the exercise. However, I suggest laying something across the green behind the position of the ball at something like perpendicular to the line of play does not clash with any of the examples of misbehaviour that the Interpretation provides. Equally, I would not see any breach in a player/caddie laying the putter on the green in a similar way. Ergo, no 4.3a breach. (Aside: as Colin L pointed out, if this was being formally considered by a referee/Committee, the player and caddie would need to be asked about their intent.)

On 10.2b, we have specific guidance that rules out pointing out line of play for ball on putting green, setting down an object to help in taking stance and restrictions on standing behind a player after commencing taking a stance. But the caddie's actions do not overlap with any of these.

Thank you for raising this, it moved me to sign up and offer these observations based on my rules knowledge and experience. I guess I'll now learn if all new chums are similarly baptised.
 

oltimer

Assistant Pro
Joined
Jul 25, 2011
Messages
269
Dear Philbyk1

That's quite some introduction to this rules forum that you have garnered. Some respondents appear to have reacted as though to an unwelcome invader from the Red Planet. But that is not a view I share.

You have raised an interesting issue and a genuine rules question, based on perceptive observation of the routine green reading drill that Reed's caddie follows. It also appears there is nothing accidental in this routine and Patrick Reed is entirely comfortable in working with the process. So is anything amiss, rules wise?

After thinking through the issues (as any good question requires you to do) IMO there is no rules breach and I get there through the process below.

Potential rules to consider are 4.3a Allowed and Prohibited Uses of Equipment and 10.2b Other Help.

On 4.3a, I really can't see this action eliminating or reducing the need for skill or judgement more generally, but Interpretation 4.3a(1)/1 - which provides some guidance on restrictions on gauging slope - merits consideration as that would appear to be the main intent of the exercise. However, I suggest laying something across the green behind the position of the ball at something like perpendicular to the line of play does not clash with any of the examples of misbehaviour that the Interpretation provides. Equally, I would not see any breach in a player/caddie laying the putter on the green in a similar way. Ergo, no 4.3a breach. (Aside: as Colin L pointed out, if this was being formally considered by a referee/Committee, the player and caddie would need to be asked about their intent.)

On 10.2b, we have specific guidance that rules out pointing out line of play for ball on putting green, setting down an object to help in taking stance and restrictions on standing behind a player after commencing taking a stance. But the caddie's actions do not overlap with any of these.

Thank you for raising this, it moved me to sign up and offer these observations based on my rules knowledge and experience. I guess I'll now learn if all new chums are similarly baptised.
Welcome to the forum, lets hope you are a qualified ref to add to the "several" who keep us on the correct route
 
Thread starter #151
Joined
Dec 13, 2020
Messages
73
That is superb and the sort of response I was hoping for when signing up.
Like one of the more reasonable respondents had suggested I assume that if the reason for the bizarre lying on the perpendicular flag is known and proves too popular their may be a new Interpretation.

My thought was that because it must be so bizarre and furthermore incredibly uncomfortable it must be to improve the chances of reading the putt and therefore the intent was to deliberately use an outside object to amplify your natural senses.

The procedure is quite bizarre. There are literally hundreds of picture examples. Search Kessler Karain on Getty images. Some show Kessler hovering one hand above the horizontal flag and the other on it. There are even some of him lying off the green with the flag underneath him. Hopefully your post will encourage a rocket scientist to sign up to explain all. Welcome to the site and thank you for taking time to join and clarify the rule situation so succinctly.
 

rulie

Head Pro
Joined
Sep 2, 2015
Messages
893
That is superb and the sort of response I was hoping for when signing up.
Like one of the more reasonable respondents had suggested I assume that if the reason for the bizarre lying on the perpendicular flag is known and proves too popular their may be a new Interpretation.

My thought was that because it must be so bizarre and furthermore incredibly uncomfortable it must be to improve the chances of reading the putt and therefore the intent was to deliberately use an outside object to amplify your natural senses.

The procedure is quite bizarre. There are literally hundreds of picture examples. Search Kessler Karain on Getty images. Some show Kessler hovering one hand above the horizontal flag and the other on it. There are even some of him lying off the green with the flag underneath him. Hopefully your post will encourage a rocket scientist to sign up to explain all. Welcome to the site and thank you for taking time to join and clarify the rule situation so succinctly.
Here's a suggestion - rather than discussing it on an open forum, where you are very unlikely to get an official answer, please go to the authorities (links below), pose and ask your question, then report the answer back to this site.
https://www.randa.org/en/footer/contactus
rules@usga.org

We will await the answer you receive.
Posts in the meantime are relatively irrelevant!
 

Colin L

Tour Winner
Joined
May 26, 2012
Messages
3,808
Location
Edinburgh
That is superb and the sort of response I was hoping for when signing up.
Well, I hope you make better use of Salfordlad's response than you have made of mine. So far, you seem to be much better at making a noise than actually listening.

Just to pick up on a point I made which you seem to be overlooking. Apart from anything else, the caddies' use of equipment would have to give the player a potential advantage to be a breach. R4.3 explicitly permits the use of equipment to help you in your play. Being so helped is a breach only if the particular use of the equipment is not allowed and that it "creates a potential advantage". I'm not going to do the thinking for you - but consider that an advantage is something you get over other people to their disadvantage, not just something that is helpful to you.
 

Swango1980

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
1,814
Just look at it yourselves and make your own minds up. He does at least 4 times on the extended sky highlights plus numerous pictures so I am clearly not winding you up.
There has been no logical explanation as to why he does it which is what I was asking originally. What an extraordinary site.
Possible explanation:

His caddy is permitted to remove the flag, and so he does. The flag is now in his possession.

As part of their routine, his caddy gets low to the ground to try and determine the line. He still has flag in his possession. What does he do? He sets it on the ground, because it makes no sense to carry it in the position he is in. The fact he sets it perpendicular to hole is simply habit, perhaps because it is the easiest position for him to place it and pick it up again.

If he set it parallel to line of shot, perhaps you could be equally critical by saying he is evaluating slope towards hole, maybe even helping to indicate line. So there is a chance he may place the flag perpendicular to hole to ensure that accusation cannot be made.
 

Swango1980

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
1,814
Here's a suggestion - rather than discussing it on an open forum, where you are very unlikely to get an official answer, please go to the authorities (links below), pose and ask your question, then report the answer back to this site.
https://www.randa.org/en/footer/contactus
rules@usga.org

We will await the answer you receive.
Posts in the meantime are relatively irrelevant!
As far as I'm aware, only committee members can contact R&A for rules guidance in UK.
 

chrisd

Major Champion
Joined
Sep 22, 2009
Messages
22,253
Location
Kent
That is superb and the sort of response I was hoping for when signing up.
Like one of the more reasonable respondents had suggested I assume that if the reason for the bizarre lying on the perpendicular flag is known and proves too popular their may be a new Interpretation.

My thought was that because it must be so bizarre and furthermore incredibly uncomfortable it must be to improve the chances of reading the putt and therefore the intent was to deliberately use an outside object to amplify your natural senses.

The procedure is quite bizarre. There are literally hundreds of picture examples. Search Kessler Karain on Getty images. Some show Kessler hovering one hand above the horizontal flag and the other on it. There are even some of him lying off the green with the flag underneath him. Hopefully your post will encourage a rocket scientist to sign up to explain all. Welcome to the site and thank you for taking time to join and clarify the rule situation so succinctly.
So Colin L and the new member Salfordlad, as well as a number of other posters with rules experience, have posted that they see no breach of rules by Reed or his caddy, I wonder do you now accept that there is no breach?
 
Thread starter #158
Joined
Dec 13, 2020
Messages
73
Possible explanation:

His caddy is permitted to remove the flag, and so he does. The flag is now in his possession.

As part of their routine, his caddy gets low to the ground to try and determine the line. He still has flag in his possession. What does he do? He sets it on the ground, because it makes no sense to carry it in the position he is in. The fact he sets it perpendicular to hole is simply habit, perhaps because it is the easiest position for him to place it and pick it up again.

If he set it parallel to line of shot, perhaps you could be equally critical by saying he is evaluating slope towards hole, maybe even helping to indicate line. So there is a chance he may place the flag perpendicular to hole to ensure that accusation cannot be made.
I think you need to see him do it. It is very precise and he even adjust the flag on occasions to ensure it is perpendicular.
 
Thread starter #159
Joined
Dec 13, 2020
Messages
73
Possible explanation:

His caddy is permitted to remove the flag, and so he does. The flag is now in his possession.

As part of their routine, his caddy gets low to the ground to try and determine the line. He still has flag in his possession. What does he do? He sets it on the ground, because it makes no sense to carry it in the position he is in. The fact he sets it perpendicular to hole is simply habit, perhaps because it is the easiest position for him to place it and pick it up again.

If he set it parallel to line of shot, perhaps you could be equally critical by saying he is evaluating slope towards hole, maybe even helping to indicate line. So there is a chance he may place the flag perpendicular to hole to ensure that accusation cannot be made.
I think you need to see him do it. It is very precise and he even adjust the flag on occasions to ensure it is perpendicular.
 

drive4show

Ryder Cup Winner
Joined
Jul 16, 2011
Messages
14,044
Location
400 miles south of the home of golf
I think you need to see him do it. It is very precise and he even adjust the flag on occasions to ensure it is perpendicular.
My interpretation is that you have a very vivid imagination and have an ability to read things into situations that don't actually exist.
Why can't you accept that top level pros come under massive scrutiny from tournament referees, TV cameras and fellow competitors and if Reed was breaking any rules they would be all over him like a rash?
Is this the sort of measured response you were hoping for?
 
Top