Patrick Read’s caddie

Thread starter #81
Joined
Dec 13, 2020
Messages
73
Ok guys enough

Bit surprised at the reaction this question has raised, new member too.

Having looked at it, he may have a point, so what’s with all the vitriol?
Why can’t we discuss this in an adult fashion?

To the OP : to be fair you have repeated yourself again and again and this generally antagonises people, so maybe time to stop.
Thanks will do.
 

Colin L

Tour Winner
Joined
May 26, 2012
Messages
3,808
Location
Edinburgh
It is always flag down first, then step behind and look at the putt crouching. Then he sometimes goes flat on the ground to see the line of the putt from closer.

The perpendicular point is best described if you think what Rose does which is aim point putting method. See attached how in point one the man is using his feet to determine the slope. He stands behind the ball with his feet either side of the ball. This gives him the feel of whether the green is slopping. If his left foot feels lower than his right the putt is likely to be right to left and vice versa. All I think Reeds caddie is doing is using the flag for the same affect. He always places it across the green see picture for demonstration. It amplifies the slope but is the same principle of using feet and balance.

The shots of him lying flat on the ground are after he has viewed the flag lying on its own on the ground. Best example was on 9 yesterday when Reed actually missed a short one. I have attached a picture of the caddie in the process of placing the flag perpendicular to the hole. if after placing the right side of the flag is higher when viewed from our view it is a right to left putt. it simply replaces the feet in the aim point process. think of the guy in point one placing a flag across his feet with the flag.


https://www.todaysgolfer.co.uk/news-and-events/general-news/2018/may/what-is-aim-point-putting
I don't get how it relates to AimPoint which depends on feeling through your feet, but no matter. After a quick review of Rule 10, I can't see the caddie's actions being in breach of anything. Nor can I think of any other rule that could be breached by them.
 
Thread starter #83
Joined
Dec 13, 2020
Messages
73
Ignoring aim point as this has been exhausted. You either understand it or you don’t but may be 4.3 is the rule. Sorry if this number has been updated.
Rule 4.3 limits the use of equipment and devices that might help a player in his or her play, based on the principle that golf is a challenging game in which success should depend on the judgement, skills and abilities of the player.
 

williamalex1

Money List Winner
Joined
Apr 7, 2012
Messages
10,772
Location
uddingston
I can see how it could help you square up aligning a putt, but if it is removed before the putt , what's the problem.
Same idea as putting a club down to align your feet at address, then remove it .:confused:
 

Colin L

Tour Winner
Joined
May 26, 2012
Messages
3,808
Location
Edinburgh
Ignoring aim point as this has been exhausted. You either understand it or you don’t but may be 4.3 is the rule. Sorry if this number has been updated.
Rule 4.3 limits the use of equipment and devices that might help a player in his or her play, based on the principle that golf is a challenging game in which success should depend on the judgement, skills and abilities of the player.
I didn't see any breach of 4.3 either.
 

PhilTheFragger

Global Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 29, 2009
Messages
12,608
Location
Aylesbury Bucks
Well the bulk of the forum can’t see an issue, so we might just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Be interesting what the tour caddies have to say on it
 

Neilds

Assistant Pro
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Messages
887
Location
Wiltshire
To the OP- is he putting the flag across the line of the putt? I believe he is at least 3-4 feet back, maybe more so this is not the same as aim point where you straddle the line of the putt.
Also, how accurate is the caddie when he puts the flag down? And when he lies on the flag, how accurate will the slope be get through clothing, range book, divots, etc in his bib pockets?
 
Thread starter #89
Joined
Dec 13, 2020
Messages
73
Well the bulk of the forum can’t see an issue, so we might just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Be interesting what the tour caddies have to say on it
Yes more traction from those who get aim point technique. Most of the negatives (apart from the abuse) have been around they don’t see why it is an advantage. The rule point is still open I.e. if someone has worked out a method of reading a putt using the flag is that legal under 4.3.
 
Thread starter #90
Joined
Dec 13, 2020
Messages
73
To the OP- is he putting the flag across the line of the putt? I believe he is at least 3-4 feet back, maybe more so this is not the same as aim point where you straddle the line of the putt.
Also, how accurate is the caddie when he puts the flag down? And when he lies on the flag, how accurate will the slope be get through clothing, range book, divots, etc in his bib pockets?
Don’t want to repeat myself. Just look at how precise it is pre lying down next time you see reed play.
 

chrisd

Major Champion
Joined
Sep 22, 2009
Messages
22,253
Location
Kent
Yes more traction from those who get aim point technique. Most of the negatives (apart from the abuse) have been around they don’t see why it is an advantage. The rule point is still open I.e. if someone has worked out a method of reading a putt using the flag is that legal under 4.3.
I've done Aimpoint and cant see any benefit from laying the flag stick down. Aimpoint is all about standing up and measuring slope and break through your feet, walking along between ball and cup and remeasuring and finally getting the break from using fingers and arm length to measure and calibrate the Aimpoint.

Anyway, if ColinL says theres no infringement then there is no infringement!
 
Thread starter #93
Joined
Dec 13, 2020
Messages
73
To the OP- is he putting the flag across the line of the putt? I believe he is at least 3-4 feet back, maybe more so this is not the same as aim point where you straddle the line of the putt.
Also, how accurate is the caddie when he puts the flag down? And when he lies on the flag, how accurate will the slope be get through clothing, range book, divots, etc in his bib pockets?
I've done Aimpoint and cant see any benefit from laying the flag stick down. Aimpoint is all about standing up and measuring slope and break through your feet, walking along between ball and cup and remeasuring and finally getting the break from using fingers and arm length to measure and calibrate the Aimpoint.

Anyway, if ColinL says theres no infringement then there is no infringement!
I've done Aimpoint and cant see any benefit from laying the flag stick down. Aimpoint is all about standing up and measuring slope and break through your feet, walking along between ball and cup and remeasuring and finally getting the break from using fingers and arm length to measure and calibrate the Aimpoint.

Anyway, if ColinL says theres no infringement then there is no infringement!
Agreed not the same as aim point but in my view similar principle. Hadnt appreciated Colin L was rules guru so take that as read.
 

Traminator

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 6, 2020
Messages
4,811
Yes more traction from those who get aim point technique. Most of the negatives (apart from the abuse) have been around they don’t see why it is an advantage. The rule point is still open I.e. if someone has worked out a method of reading a putt using the flag is that legal under 4.3.
Aimpoint has been around for years, you're talking about it like it's some new magic that only a couple of people know about, which is not true.

I did 2 days with this guy by the way: http://golfinthelifeof.com/john-graham/

Nearly 100 posts in and you can't specify what's illegal about it, but more to the point how it would even help.

Any slope behind the ball is irrelevant, it's the slope between the ball and hole that matters, and you can't judge that by having a flagstick under your stomach.
 
Thread starter #95
Joined
Dec 13, 2020
Messages
73
If he is using the flag to help them I think he breaking 4.3.
Colin I understand now that you are hot on the rules so thanks for confirming no breach of rule 4.3.
Are there any places you can’t place the flag? E.g. if you had a steep down hill putt and you placed the flag to the side but parallel to the hole would this be using an artificial aid to help gauge the slope?
Or if you assessed an uphill putt was playing say twice as long as it’s actual distance could you place the flag behind the hole twice the distance to help with distance control.
 
Thread starter #96
Joined
Dec 13, 2020
Messages
73
Colin I understand now that you are hot on the rules so thanks for confirming no breach of rule 4.3.
Are there any places you can’t place the flag? E.g. if you had a steep down hill putt and you placed the flag to the side but parallel to the hole would this be using an artificial aid to help gauge the slope?
Or if you assessed an uphill putt was playing say twice as long as it’s actual distance could you place the flag behind the hole twice the distance to help with distance control.
Sorry to save you pointing it out I am aware that the flag has to be removed before putting.
 

Colin L

Tour Winner
Joined
May 26, 2012
Messages
3,808
Location
Edinburgh
I've done Aimpoint and cant see any benefit from laying the flag stick down. Aimpoint is all about standing up and measuring slope and break through your feet, walking along between ball and cup and remeasuring and finally getting the break from using fingers and arm length to measure and calibrate the Aimpoint.

Anyway, if ColinL says theres no infringement then there is no infringement!
Steady on! That's too scary an endorsement considering the number of mistakes I've made over time.
 

Colin L

Tour Winner
Joined
May 26, 2012
Messages
3,808
Location
Edinburgh
Sorry to save you pointing it out I am aware that the flag has to be removed before putting.
I wouldn't do that as there isn't any requirement to take the flagstick out before putting. ;) Prior to the major rules revision in 2019 there was a penalty for hitting the flagstick if your ball was on the putting green but nothing to stop you putting with it in. Now there is no penalty.
 

jim8flog

Journeyman Pro
Joined
May 20, 2017
Messages
8,400
Location
Yeovil
I can see how it could help you square up aligning a putt, but if it is removed before the putt , what's the problem.
Same idea as putting a club down to align your feet at address, then remove it .:confused:
That definitely is a penalty
10.2 b (2)

• The player or caddie must not set an object down anywhere on or off the putting green to show the line of play. This is not allowed even if that object is removed before the stroke is made.
 

rulefan

Tour Winner
Joined
Feb 21, 2013
Messages
9,475
That definitely is a penalty
10.2 b (2)

• The player or caddie must not set an object down anywhere on or off the putting green to show the line of play. This is not allowed even if that object is removed before the stroke is made.
How does a flagstick set at right angles do that. It is giving a 6'+ target. Surely it can only give an indication of a borrow.
 
Top