Not another sex discrimination thread

[Swango1980]

Don’t know if you’re a lawyer (I’m certainly not) in which case I’ll bow to your greater knowledge. But it’s hard to reconcile that it’s ok to discrimate against women on Saturday and for them on Tuesday and vice versa for men.

Surely the point he is making that discrimination is not always wrong or unlawful, but the word has automatically defined by some as a "bad word"

What I mean by this is, if you had another time period over the holidays, where the tee is booked for Juniors for an hour or 2, you are discriminating against older members during that time period. But, I'm pretty sure most wouldn't see it as unlawful or something to necessarily complain against.

If ladies at his club were offered a 7-day membership, perhaps it is simply impossible for them to play on a Saturday. Therefore, the club could argue the lesser day membership is much more beneficial to ladies, not charging them for the full week. In fact, the OP could take that to the next level, and maybe they could introduce a 4 day membership (weekdays except Ladies Day) for existing 5-day men members? Perhaps they could offer ladies a 7 day membership, albeit there would be no point in taking it up. Simply to show they are not stopping ladies joining at that level. If there was plenty of opportunity to play on a Saturday, outside the Men's Competition, then I'd argue not allowing ladies to play on a Saturday is probably unfair discrimination. Also, if there were plenty of ladies who could only play at weekends, as they work during the week, the club could be on dodgy ground by not giving working ladies the same opportunities as men.

 

[clubchamp98]

Thanks. When I asked for observations in my original post, this was the kind of counter argument I had in the back of my mind.
I don't want to back myself into a corner on a discrimination agenda, if this doesn't hold water from a legal standpoint.
I figured the subject matter must have been debated up and down the country at some point, so it's interesting that yours is the first post that effectively says "yes, it's discrimination but it's legal".

There are several kinds of discrimination in my club.
No joining fee for women ( it’s £1200 for men)
But males under 30 yrs old no joining fee.
That’s a lot of money.
So 26 yr old millionaire no fee.
31 yr old minimum wage earner =£1200 fee.
So positive discrimination might sound good sometimes but it always has drawbacks for somebody.

 

[backwoodsman]

I think most folk are missing a point - deliberately or otherwise - that there is discrimination that is wrong in the eyes of the law, and there's discrimination. Just because something isnt actually illegal doesnt make it right.

 

[Dibby]

I think most folk are missing a point - deliberately or otherwise - that there is discrimination that is wrong in the eyes of the law, and there's discrimination. Just because something isnt actually illegal doesnt make it right.

Who is the arbiter of right though?
The other issue with this is that being right doesn't always help, if there is nothing to back it up, like a law for example.

It's right that you give way to traffic on your right hand side when you are joining a mini roundabout. You can choose to ignore this rule, and depending on which one of you and the oncoming vehicle is the bicycle and which one of you is the lorry being in the right may not that useful given the outcome that follows.

 

[clubchamp98]

I don't want to go too far down the rabbit hole, especially of hypothetical questions, so let me just try and explain what I meant by my "dead in the water" quip and subsequent reply.

It seems to me that it would be difficult to stand in front of a judge and argue that the club positively discriminates in favour of women on a Tuesday due to the laudable goal of increasing participation by an under-represented group while, at the same time, operating a policy that is the antithesis of that goal. Namely, preventing that same under-represented group from attaining full 7 day membership.

That was just my take as a non lawyer.

Does seem strange that full 7 day is not avaliable to women.
I wonder what the reason for that is.
It’s not a very good message to our young girls starting the game.
On the other hand I wonder how many women would take up full membership as it stands.
It would not be worth it.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

And they wonder why young women who work 9-5 weekdays are not interested in playing golf.

Surely the point he is making that discrimination is not always wrong or unlawful, but the word has automatically defined by some as a "bad word"

What I mean by this is, if you had another time period over the holidays, where the tee is booked for Juniors for an hour or 2, you are discriminating against older members during that time period. But, I'm pretty sure most wouldn't see it as unlawful or something to necessarily complain against.

If ladies at his club were offered a 7-day membership, perhaps it is simply impossible for them to play on a Saturday. Therefore, the club could argue the lesser day membership is much more beneficial to ladies, not charging them for the full week. In fact, the OP could take that to the next level, and maybe they could introduce a 4 day membership (weekdays except Ladies Day) for existing 5-day men members? Perhaps they could offer ladies a 7 day membership, albeit there would be no point in taking it up. Simply to show they are not stopping ladies joining at that level. If there was plenty of opportunity to play on a Saturday, outside the Men's Competition, then I'd argue not allowing ladies to play on a Saturday is probably unfair discrimination. Also, if there were plenty of ladies who could only play at weekends, as they work during the week, the club could be on dodgy ground by not giving working ladies the same opportunities as men.

Interesting conversation with the membership committee when a female member says that because of new work rotas she can only play golf on Saturdays.

 

[Smiffy]

I remember when I was at Crowborough Beacon years ago.
The men used to have a Wednesday competition called "The Rabbits". Four women members were taking tea on the verandah one Wednesday afternoon and overheard some of the men effing and blinding on the 18th green. They put in an official letter of complaint and from that day onwards, women were banned from taking tea on the verandah on Wednesday afternoons.

 

[birdyhunter]

it's interesting that yours is the first post that effectively says "yes, it's discrimination but it's legal".

It's not discriminating and it is legal, unless you can prove in writing that you have been banned by the club from playing during the ladies morning, rather than being inconvenienced through the block booking.

 

[Tashyboy]

Not read five pages but it seems two wrongs don’t make a right.

 

[Sports_Fanatic]

Apologies I haven't read the whole thread so this may have been suggested, but depending on course set up then can you just suggest that in winter months, rather than extend the tee time reservation they do more like a shotgun start (not necessarily off all 18 just the convenient ones) and that way the ladies can all get out on a Tuesday quicker giving you time to play, and they may have the added benefit of all finishing closer together to make the drinks afterwards (dependent on Covid bar opening rules ).

It would be that or suggesting a slightly reduced rate but perhaps this is already factored in if for example the Ladies can't play all 5 days due to men's seniors roll ups.

Understand the 7 day point on exclusion of ladies that should be overturned but I don't think it's relevant to your complaint so I'd stick with solutions that potentially work.

 

[Swango1980]

Apologies I haven't read the whole thread so this may have been suggested, but depending on course set up then can you just suggest that in winter months, rather than extend the tee time reservation they do more like a shotgun start (not necessarily off all 18 just the convenient ones) and that way the ladies can all get out on a Tuesday quicker giving you time to play, and they may have the added benefit of all finishing closer together to make the drinks afterwards (dependent on Covid bar opening rules ).

It would be that or suggesting a slightly reduced rate but perhaps this is already factored in if for example the Ladies can't play all 5 days due to men's seniors roll ups.

Understand the 7 day point on exclusion of ladies that should be overturned but I don't think it's relevant to your complaint so I'd stick with solutions that potentially work.

The tee is currently booked for 4 hours 15 minutes. I'm not sure what group sizes they play, but I suspect there would be difficulty in having enough holes to accommodate all lady players. In addition, a shotgun start effectively closes the entire course until ladies complete their rounds, as groups will continually cycle through the 1st tee. Given that rounds can extend beyond 4 hours anyway, then it pretty much will mean no one else can tee off until after 1:15 anyway. Worse still, the tee must be closed from dawn (before any ladies tee off), because you can't have anybody out on the course if you are going to have a shotgun start. However, I'm unsure what the situation is in regards to people teeing off before 9am currently. The question has been asked, but not sure if it was answered.

 

[Bdill93]

The tee is currently booked for 4 hours 15 minutes. I'm not sure what group sizes they play, but I suspect there would be difficulty in having enough holes to accommodate all lady players. In addition, a shotgun start effectively closes the entire course until ladies complete their rounds, as groups will continually cycle through the 1st tee. Given that rounds can extend beyond 4 hours anyway, then it pretty much will mean no one else can tee off until after 1:15 anyway. Worse still, the tee must be closed from dawn (before any ladies tee off), because you can't have anybody out on the course if you are going to have a shotgun start. However, I'm unsure what the situation is in regards to people teeing off before 9am currently. The question has been asked, but not sure if it was answered.

It hasnt... I think the OP just doesnt like an early start!

 

[Newton]

However, I'm unsure what the situation is in regards to people teeing off before 9am currently.

There are half a dozen or so tee times available to book from sunrise to around 8.45am

 

[Newton]

It hasnt... I think the OP just doesnt like an early start!

Harsh, but unfortunately very true.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

Don't obsess about playing 18 holes.

My old club used to play 12 holes in winter on busy days and rotate them. It was absolutely fine.

I appreciate golf is an 18 hole game. But in winter not getting a full round in isn't the end of the world.

 

[clubchamp98]

It hasnt... I think the OP just doesnt like an early start!

He might be taking kids/ grandkids to school.
Like many others.

 

[Bdill93]

He might be taking kids/ grandkids to school.
Like many others.

He might - but he admitted it above.....

Problem solved - get out of bed Newton!!

 

[doublebogey7]

Harsh, but unfortunately very true.

So you are able to play on a Tuesday, you just don't like the times offered. Not sure you'll get very fare either taking this to an AGM and its certainly not worth consulting better legal minds than you find on here. I would consider moving to a course that has free times available that suit you.

 

[Newton]

Problem solved - get out of bed Newton!!

Joking apart, I'd set the alarm clock if it was a feasible option, as much as it would kill me to get up before it was light.
Unfortunately, one of our 4ball's more senior members has a medical/drug regime in the mornings which would prevent such an early start.
Though I am thinking of joining him on the drugs as he's gone from shooting mid 80's to high 70's since they changed his meds.
I've told him I'm getting WADA on his case if he carries on like that.

 

[Newton]

So you are able to play on a Tuesday, you just don't like the times offered.

Yes and no
Yes, there are times available before the ladies comp but even if this were an option (see post above), demand massively outstrips supply due to the minimal number slots available.